February 2, 2008
Russian Women Want Real Men - Part 1 - Walking Away from the Feminist Re-Education Camps
Posted by rw_man under Advice Column, American Men, Background, Bad Habits, Beauty & Sexiness, Culture & Beliefs, Feminism, General, International Men, Rants & Raw Deals, Real Man, Russian Women, Why Russian Women?One of the hardest things for most men to grasp is that the feminist cultural norms they were indoctrinated into are absolutely destructive towards their dream of having a happy marriage with a beautiful and traditional lady.
And the core factor which determines success or failure for them depends on which of the following paths they choose:
Bold & Active
OR
Defensive & Passive
Now Imagine what would happen if you yourself acted in a DEFENSIVE or APOLOGETIC stance everyday.
It shouldn’t be too hard to see that this would lead to a whole host of problems that would make your life pretty miserable.
Now let’s take this one step further.
Imagine a life where everything you say as a Man is followed by some disclaimer or apology because you are constantly expecting to be attacked or labeled as one of the following:
-
Abuser
-
Chauvinist
-
Stupid
-
Rapist
-
Sexist
-
Violent
-
Lazy
-
Irresponsible
… and the list goes on and on.
Tragically Gentlemen this is the “Feminist Re-education Camp” culture that many of us were born into.
And throwing a toxic mix of fear and labels at someone starting from a young age on is a VERY EFFECTIVE method of LIFELONG CONTROL.
Obviously if we were brought up to believe these things about ourselves as Men…
Then on some level we were born and manipulated since the time we were boys to be slaves.
Unfortunately this hostile environment against Men is so commonplace in North America that the majority of men accept this as the status quo and just adapt themselves to living an apologetic lifestyle for the rest of their days.
And Gentlemen there is nothing sadder then seeing a once proud and nobel Man reduced to a mental and emotionally compliant puppet.
Believe me on this one..
This is no way to try to attract or have a relationship with any woman let alone a traditional one from the FSU.
I’m sure you can imagine what type of depressing feelings and behaviors exist in such a place for such a man.
I’m also sure you can imagine the underlying FEAR and CAUTION that Men exercise when having even the most mundane conversations with Women…
And sadly with other Men too..
This reminds me of the bad old days of the Cold War when children in some Soviet Bloc countries were taught in school to report their own parents to the Communist Authorities if they uttered the slightest criticism about the State.
I believe that we are one step away from re-living this nightmarish past if we allow the Feminists to continue their insatiable drive for power and control with the “Political Correctness” campaign they expertly wield over media, culture, and our very own identities as Men.
The very first step that must be done to correct this is also a very difficult one..
Because we must accept that all of us have been brainwashed to various degrees by a vicious and hostile Feminist culture.
And there is no way to really understand the depths of this brainwashing until you remove yourself out of the Feminist “re-education” camp that many of us were brought up in and are able to freely live or experience another country far removed from this propaganda and indoctrination.
The fact that anyone is born into a hostile world where the cards are always stacked against them is a tragedy.
But allowing this initial tragedy to continue to grow is a catastrophe.
Because if we are not deeply vigilant and self-aware of this situation then one tragedy in life has a very bad habit of metastasizing like a cancer and spreading until it eventually kills off the entire body.
Or in this case a Man’s spirit.
Let’s illustrate a simple scenario of this happening.
Tragedy 0
Feminist indoctrinated Western Women along with popular media, news, and cultural norms all combine to convey a convincing message that “Men are bad”.
Tragedy 1
A Man raised in this environment is naturally conditioned to have defensive behaviors motivated by fear and caution in order to keep him “safe”.
Tragedy 2
These defensive behaviors become directly responsible for his inability to have a rewarding relationship with any worthy or traditional woman.. and in this case let’s assume a Russian or FSU Woman.
Tragedy 3
He goes home disappointed and decides not to trust anymore women and closes the door to his soul becoming even more bitter, lonely and insecure.
It is my point to warn you about the consequences of carrying any beliefs, attitudes or behaviors that will lead to a Tragedy Number 2 and beyond.
So how can we prevent this before it happens?
My personal advice is for you to record a personal diary of all the events in your day where you feel like you’ve had to compromise your actions, thinking or communication in order to “protect yourself” or “not offend” someone.
But the most critcal part of this exercise is to also list the TRUTH of what it was you really wanted to say or do in that moment.
This is very important advice because you will find that the traditional Ladies from Russia or the FSU will completely RESPECT your ability to tell the TRUTH and will feel more attraction to you because of it.
I believe it is important for any man in this situation to accept the fact that he needs to completely tear down the feminist indoctrination built up inside of him and to rebuild his identity and self-esteem from scratch by rebuilding what he knows as his OWN PERSONAL TRUTH.
Any man in this situation must accept the fact that change is always hard and yes this is one of the hardest changes in life he will ever do..
However, it can be fueled by his desire to love and be loved by a special woman. And this in itself is a unique opportunity and powerful motivating force to do things right.
Any Man reading this should accept the fact that no matter what specific advice I give on how to court a Traditional Russian Woman the ABSOLUTE most important advice I can provide FIRST is to re-establish your identity as a Traditional MAN.
And the BEST way to do that is by always acknowledging and expressing the TRUTH.
And this is why it’s important for me to encourage you towards developing a DEEP sense of CLARITY and MOTIVATION about what it is you need to do as a Man for yourself and your future family.
This understanding and your MOTIVATION to do something about it is the foundation and framework for every piece of advice that follows.
Because there’s no use trying to build a new home on top of an old one that already sits on quicksand.
Stay tuned for more..
February 2, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Oddly enough, I just had a conversation yesterday with my (Orthodox) priest on this very topic. He’s married with seven children, and a good bit of what he had to say addressed the subject of what happens when women run things, and how the whole order of society is turned upside down when that happens. Me, I’m at a point where I don’t even believe women should have the vote.
As for being one step away from the society where children report on their parents — have you checked out public school lately?? We’re not only already there, we’ve been there for some 20 years now.
I once commented on an Orthodox chat list that it would be so funny if we all found ourselves heading back to Russia in order to be able to practice our faith openly, and someone reminded me of a Biblical quote, “They will come from the East to the West, and from the West to the East.” Bottom line: Go East, young men, and STAY there, for your own sake and for the sake of civilized society. It doesn’t exist here anymore.
February 2, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Hi Meg,
Thanks for your comment. I know that this is a heck of a subject to address in regards to courting Russian Women but it’s such a huge important issue in understanding underlying motives and behaviors for Men and how that relates to their success or failure not just in Romance but in life as well.
I don’t think moving to the FSU is for everyone but I do wish that they get enough exposure there to see and feel the difference with how Men and Women act in a normal society with traditional gender roles.
Cheers, GL
February 2, 2008 at 10:14 pm
GL,
If meeting and communicating with a woman from Russia via the internet is only 20% of the journey and only 2% of RW employ marriage agencies than I would prefer to skip this part of the process entirely.
I can picture two scenarios of making the trip to Russia.
FIRST SCENARIO
Passport… $x
Extended Visa… $x
Airplane Tickets… $x x
Food… $x
Housing… $x
Transportation… $x
Meeting the Right Woman……………priceless
SECOND SCENARIO
Passport… $x
Extended Visa… $x
Airplane Tickets… $x x
Food… $x
Housing… $x
Transportation… $x
Not Meeting the Right Woman……….worthless
I don’t know what the actual expenses are of traveling to and living in Russia for a year but I’m certain they aren’t cheap - not to mention the loss of business. With this type of all or nothing pressure it’s like a blindfolded archer having one arrow trying to hit a bullseye with one shot and not even knowing which direction to aim.
I know what the benefits are.
What are the costs?
-Mick
February 3, 2008 at 12:48 am
Here’s the thing though Mick.
A lot of older men’s activists have been suggesting to young men (young men not yet of marriagable age*) to go to these countries because they believe that it will be a good experience for them to get into their brains — while they’re young — what the world is like outside of the misandric West. And oftentimes they are able to do this using their parents’ money.
My parents paid for about a third of my trip to Poland, and NHY’s parents paid for the entire thing of his trip to Bulgaria.
The only problem with that is that it sometimes contributes to another very big problem, which is that some parents (including mine)then feel that because they paid for schooling, college, trips, etc., that said man is now an indentured servant to them for the remainder of his life. I know it sounds unbelievable, but that’s unfortunately the kind of attitude that my own parents have been displaying towards me as of the past few years, even though I now no longer live with them — except during holidays.
So eventually you have to stand up to them and declare that you are not their indentured servant, regardless of them paying all that money on your behalf. (Which is harder than it sounds, because said parents often try very hard to instill the feeling of indebtedness in their children.)
So in the end, due to the trope of young men being involved in men’s activism, and the older men telling the younger men to experience themselves with these new countries while they’re still in college and such, oftentimes using someone else’s money, whether it be the school’s, or the parents’, or whatever, if and when they finally do decide to shoot at that target, they will be trained better for that shot than they otherwise would have been.
February 3, 2008 at 1:29 am
And as for you GL:
In the community of men at school where I’m at now, especially in the community of anti-feminist men in my school where I’m at right now, whether we are “Bold and Active”, or “Defensive and Passive” is very much on a “hit-and-fade” basis.
On one hand we are still badly outnumbered by feminists, and we are outgunned by a government and college administration that will entertain charges of “sexual harassment” and such against us if we even look at a woman the wrong way or “make a woman feel bad”, or maybe even a false charge or two of something more serious such as sexual assault. So when those things brandish their might against us, we have no choice but to retreat into “defensiveness and passiveness”, as you call it.
But on the other hand, we attack whenever we can. For example there was an incident this year where I decided that I wasn’t going to take it anymore and I played Mancast real loud on the speakers in my dorm room, and it featured MRA’s exposing feminist lies, and the young men in my hall didn’t like what they were hearing at all, so they logged onto Mancast, and they probably didn’t like what they read on the MGTOW site that mancast is on, so they waited until the middle of the night when noone was around and they knocked down a feminist poster that had been on the wall in our hall.
And the administration put it back up, and the next night they knocked it down again, and then the administration put it back up, and the night after that they knocked it down again.
And I actually found out which guys did it, too, but the administration will never get it out of me.
So in the sense that many of the antifeminist men at my college, and even some that weren’t originally antifeminists but who later became antifeminists, have gotten so angry that they become engaged in some form or another of guerrilla rebellion against the feminists, we fit your label of “bold and active” as well.
So like I said before, whether folks are “defensive and passive” or “bold and active” depends entirely upon whether the feminists and the administration are awake and watching, or whether they’re all asleep in their beds.
February 3, 2008 at 2:17 am
Luke,
there’s an easy way out of that ‘you owe me’ paradigm… save your money and pay them back. If they dont wanna take the money, then just leave the cash on the kitchen counter. Or you could put the money in their bank account, all ya need is the account number.
They may be a bit defensive about it initially, knowing they are loosing their karmic claim on you, but they will get over that and respect you enourmously… eventually.
February 3, 2008 at 2:22 am
Oh, and I forgot to mention that the third time the men knocked down the feminist poster, the administration actually gave up, and moved the poster out of our hall to another hall.
Which is odd, because usually what they would have done about something like that is refused to give up, and called an assembly about it calling for the people responsible to be publically shamed, and everything else. But for whatever reason, they gave up and moved that poster out of the hall.
February 3, 2008 at 4:23 am
Hi Mick,
If you’ve never been to the FSU before then I would suggest to you the KNOWLEDGE you gain by going there and experiencing what real traditional women are like is totally priceless..
I know that the final goal is to get married but I really believe the ultimate goal is for any man to become stronger and have a sense of clarity for how he wishes his personal world to be.
It’s difficult to envision this feeling and understanding unless you’ve been here and can feel the changes happening within.
In short this is going to be a part of your life education no different from any other major event.. How do you put a price tag on that? You can’t..
Is it worth it?
From my perspective..
Absolutely..
Also one last thing. You use the example of a blind archer with one arrow. And I disagree with that analogy..
I believe a better analogy would be this. You have a smart cruise missile that is able to make course adjustments in flight depending on how smart it’s initial programming and knowledge base is before it get’s launched..
Hope this helps..
GL
February 3, 2008 at 4:27 am
Luke,
It would be interesting to see what type of poster you guys could come up with and post on the walls yourself..
At that point no one can label you as a vandal but as an activist..
Also please try to stay on topic and avoid discussions about your personal financial arrangements with your parents.
Good Luck and Thanks.
GL
February 3, 2008 at 4:39 am
I didn’t have anything to do with the vandalism at all. It was just something that I observed happened after I played the MRA material on my computer speakers. I know who did it, but I did not in any way instruct them to do it.
It was part of my answer to Mick’s question. I didn’t know it would be a problem, sorry.
February 3, 2008 at 4:41 am
Oh, and btw people tried to do that last year, and the administration had them all torn down within a day and a half.
February 3, 2008 at 5:29 pm
I’m afraid you’re right Meg about how the U.S. is already like the former Soviet Union. It’s only a matter of time before the United States implodes like a submarine descending below crush depth, and when it does people here will find themselves in the same sort of nightmare my father and his parents fled from during WW-II. They are Ukrainian and Russian, and I find it ironic that it may be my turn sooner than later to either flee, or fight the same enemy millions of Ukrainians and Russians died opposing. Thanks to the barbarians that have been admitted to the U.S. and the one’s running it too, civilized society is soon to be extinct here.
Taras
February 3, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Thanks, GL - the big question I had after reading your last post was HOW to find our way out of the rabbit hole we’ve spent our whole lives in, when it permeates our whole way of thinking and responding to life.
Your suggestion of a journal is an excellent way to build consciousness of how we’ve internalized feminist dogma. Being a guy (and an engineer) I need concrete suggestions like that.
And I’m staying tuned…
February 3, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Taras,
As of this year, having health insurance is mandatory in Massachusetts. (Talk about an unfunded mandate!) If you think about it, insurance is form of collectivism. Some pay in, others draw out. (To each according to his needs .. ) When it becomes mandatory, it’s full blown socialism. And of course the next step is, “You can’t afford insurance? We have this new government program for you..” And guess who pays for it?
February 4, 2008 at 9:18 am
Luke, the issues you have with women have got nothing to do with them. They have to do with you. I have seen you on other forums. Your desire to convince yourself that women are the problem is not healthy, esspecially at your age
Im not about to suggest that western women are saints in any respect. Hell, I wont touch them with a barge pole in most cases, although there are still some gems out there. The difference is that I know what is acceptable behaviour, and what is not.
Not all FSU women are going to be great catches. How will you know how to identify a good women if you have never been with a bad one?
You need more life experience lad. At your age, you should not be thinking about marriage and famailies. You should be dating girls, playing sports, hanging with your mates and identifing what you want to do with your life. Your obsession with MRA at such a young age is not healthy. Be aware, just stop using the situation to justify poor results on your side. Leave that to Winston Wu please.
From my side, Ill encourage my kids to travel when they hit the right age. Its the greatest advice my father gave me. Words alone cant do justice to the gratitude I feel for his encouragement to travel the world a bit. It changed my perspective on life.
February 4, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Excellent post, GL!
It’s interesting that my husband who lived through communism up through his teens, says that people had more idealistic freedom then than now in the U.S. People were pressured from the outside by the government to say the party lines, to do the party activities, but they all knew where it was coming from, who to blame, and who you could speak your mind to. They went on believing and being in private and felt a real cameraderie with others.
Here, one is truly brainwashed through television, newspapers, cleverly constructed lines and slogans, through workplace policies, etc, until you can hardly breathe. Until relations with others are at their most shallow, and will never go deeper because of the fear that they will find out that you are completely out of line with the new society. If that happens, you could lose what companionship you have, your job, and more… You will be labeled old-fashioned (another term for retarded), conspiracy theorist (another term for lock it up in the psych ward), sexist, racist, etc.
Incredible for an American girl to feel so much more free in post-communist countries than the U.S. To see more joy on faces, through and through sincerity, more liveliness there, than anywhere in the U.S.
Incredible that an immigrant to the land of the free feels stifled and depressed by his freedom and longs to go back to what is so often portrayed by the media as the wicked East.
The thing that is impressive, gentlemen, about men in the East, the thing you’ll have to compete against, is thorough courtesy along with a male confidence and pride that is wholly captivating to a woman. Find it within yourself, for nothing here can rub it on you…
February 5, 2008 at 6:18 am
What issues????
Whoa, when did I ever say that??????
????????????????
????????????
Rexpat, is this you?
February 5, 2008 at 8:55 am
Ok Lurker, I’ve decided to play along.
The portion of your post about me having “issues”, which encompasses the first 3 and 1/2 paragraphs, is quite frankly, garbage, and nothing more. It’s garbage in which you imply that I said things that I never said, did things that I never did, and held beliefs that I never held.
After that three and a half paragraphs of garbage, ending with “you should not be thinking about marriage and famalies” the rest has some merit.
You’re right that before perhaps last December-January, life was a lot more carfree for me, and then I decided to take up the yoke of trying to defeat an evil enemy: communism-feminism-statism-socialism, and that led to me having a lot more work and responsibility than I did before.
Not to mention often being scared to death that my family would hate me for much of what I’ve written here and on other places, and that all it would take was one more straw on the camel’s back to have the biggest fight our family’s ever had in the 21 years I’ve been with them, which might even result in me being ousted, disowned, etc.
And then there’s always the chance that the administration at college will call me in over some of the things I’ve said and done over the past year, and I could be in boiling hot water because of that, too.
So yes you’re right, it’s been a really big burden, and also a really scary one.
I’ve always been philosophizing throughout what little has been of my adult life, and sharing that with others, so I’m not going to stop doing that and sharing what my opinions are with others.
But I suppose you’re right that I should go back to spending more time with other things besides all this stuff.
I will, however, write one last post before I go, on this blog, because this is where it all started for me.
It won’t be tonight, because I have other things that I need to do tonight. It will be tomorrow.
February 5, 2008 at 11:17 am
http://www.sosuave.net
Bottom line, I have seen your posts and activity on other forums.
You can either take this personally, or you can maybe look at the bigger picture and stop playing the blame game at such a young age.
Use it dont use it.
February 5, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Hi Doamna,
Loved your comment and you hit it on the head.
“Male Confidence and Pride that is wholly captivating to a woman.”
This is 80% of the whole deal concerning courting a Russian or FSU Lady wouldn’t you think?
Your other points about societal brainwashing through TV, newspapers, “cleaverly constructed lines” and slogans.. are another great observation on your part.
Most people have no idea how powerful language is in shaping one’s personality and character. For the longest time now our very use of language has been manipulated to imply that anyone with a traditional point of view is on the fringe or crazy.
And implying that someone is crazy is a very powerful way to surpress them.. As you know this was very commonly done in the Soviet Union especially with people who had religious beliefs who were called “stupid” or “superstitious”.
Now we see the same mechanisms in action in North America and it’s more then just a scary prospect.
GL
February 5, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Yes, 80% of the whole deal when courting ANY real woman…A woman with half her inborn femininity intact is going to immediately be drawn to a power-under-control, courteous masculinity.
Today’s society is forming a warped people who deny their very biological, sexual construction. This is what must be thought through and overcome.
February 5, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Lol @ that “sosuave” forum.
Talk about the blind leading the blind.
February 5, 2008 at 5:08 pm
“xhttp://www.sosuave.net”
You must have had the wrong Luke after all, buddy.
I’ve never been on that forum, ever.
February 5, 2008 at 5:41 pm
I think he meant you should go there to learn from them… hence blind leading the blind…
(*Scratching head wondering why I got into this*)
–
Back to topic: Great post GL. I’ve for the longest time wanted to write a post about “Reclaiming Our (Masculine) Identity”.. but frankly had trouble figuring out where to start
Looking forward to the sequels.
February 5, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Socon, for once I agree with you. Although this guy obviously mistook me for someone else, that forum is really ridiculous.
In this day and age, and in this country, and especially if you’re enrolled at a feminist college, PUA material is for reckless individuals who aren’t familiar with the term “Duke Rape Case”.
It’s absolutely reckless, because all that needs to happen is for your date to decide that she didn’t like the food or something and if you ain’t rich like them Duke boys then bam, before you know it you’re in jail for the next 25 years.
So in that context, I find it very insulting, Lurker, that you would come onto here and badger me for no reason. If you’ve “seen me on other forums”, then perhaps you saw the piece in which I wrote about how I myself was falsely accused of sexual harassment by a woman that I wasn’t even dating or anything??
So in that context I find it even more insulting that you tried to imply that I was wallowing about a pickup artist forum, and that I was saying and doing things that I never said or did. The two things that I want from my life is to be free and soverign, that’s it, and here’s you falsely implying that I was grovelling about a pickup artist forum, which is the absolute antithesis of those two things, and is the antithesis of everything I stand for.
I just don’t know what to say. I’m really disgusted with you. Really disgusted. And now you’ve disgusted me so much that I’ve changed my mind. I was going to take a break, but now I’m going to stick around for a little while longer.
Oh, and just so you know I’m never going to quit entirely.
I’m not going to quit until I am totally free of Marxism, feminism, socialism, even if I have to move to Antarctica with Rob Fedders (http://no-maam.blogspot.com) in order for that to happen.
Then I can be the soverign man that I was truly meant to be.
February 6, 2008 at 12:49 am
Hey!
I was looking for a particular article when I came upon your site. I’m a feminist, however, I’m not a North American feminist, nor am I a Capitalist feminist. I’m not any feminist that believes that women should rule the world, run up their husbands credit cards or kill men. I’m just a woman that wants to see women treated well, not men treated less well.
I believe women should be equal with men in terms of making the same amount of money for the same job, not be penalized for having a baby by losing their job, have support in a world where women in developing countries are always the ones with the lowest incomes, &tc.
I love your site. I think its brilliant that you are praising Russian women…they sound wonderful and charming. But I think you are misrepresenting feminism. Feminism, in the right sense of the word, means equality for those women you are praising so much. It means that they can live in a society where they can be free to be women and not be stigmatized, hurt or worse. It doesn’t mean that they should rule the world nor does it mean that they should be on top of men, belittle men or control men. That is a product of Western society: the idea that someone should rule over someone else, that someone should have the power to hurt those who are powerless. Feminism, in short, tells the world that women are people…and they deserve to be treated like people, that they should have access to things that will make their life worth while - education, a means of supporting them self and their family, clean water and equal pay.
I just wanted to clarify all that for you. The western world and it’s hatred has construed the true meaning of this word. Women who want men on the low end of the world and women on top are NOT feminist. They’re not even human, if you ask me. Feminist just want to level the playing field. Myself as a feminist have no problem cooking and cleaning to show my loved ones that I care for them…but I wish a man would care enough to see that I deserve the same sort of treatment once and awhile.
February 6, 2008 at 3:07 am
Hello E,
I respect your ability to come here and to intiate a civil debate and for your open declaration of being a feminist.
Let me first start by thanking you for your participation and your appreciation for this site.
However, I know that I have not misrepresented what I see in Feminism because I understand what Feminism truly is.
Let’s be very clear here.
Feminism is a form of Socialism and Marxism.
And your frequent use of the word “equal” and “equality” only goes to prove this because these words are the key code words for Socialism.
Or to be completely blunt about this..
Anytime you use the word “equal” and “equality”..
You are really just substituting them for the words of “theft” and “stealing”.
The deepest level of our disagreement is a simple one.
What is truly the best way to empower the most women possible to live successful and happy lives?
Does this solution come from promoting the “STATE” to solve their problems..
Or
Does this solution come from promoting strong FAMILIES with traditional life long values of responsibility and personal growth?
Should we increase the size and power of the State in terms of socialist oriented legislation in order to “enforce” what you call “equality”?
I believe you would answer yes to this so why don’t we take a simple look at the results of this disaster unfolding right now..
Here’s one example.
Huge numbers of North American/Western Men have given up on the idea of getting married because it is completely fraught with financial and personal risks due to the “equality” of divorce courts, a predatory legal system and, a popular feminist culture which promotes long term destructive behaviors like in “Sex in the City”.
Less Men getting married means less families.
Less families means less women getting lifelong love and support.
And all this adds up to a large population of lonely and financially disadvantaged women in North America and the West which is sadly now becoming more the accepted norm.
And if you haven’t figured this out by now then you should realize that this creates a vicious cycle that will only alienate and impoverish more and more women with time.
It’s obvious that Feminism has created a “Cure” which is killing the patient it was intended for.
Feminist like all Socialists, Marxists or Communists are incredibly short sided in their views.. And unfortunately far more destructive in their results when they are given controlling power and end up literally killing off entire populations and societies in the process.
All of these groups have asked the wrong question from the very start.
They have asked the question.. How can I GET as much money as my neighbor, co-worker, husband, etc..
They NAIVELY and TRAGICALLY believe that the money they hope to get for little effort or for free is the central answer to a happy life.
And their favorite phrase to justify their laziness or failure to make the right personal choices is..
“I want EQUALITY.”
Clearly the better solution to a higher income is to simply EARN IT by making smart choices in a free market where you can freely build up your own maximum value and benefit from it.
And deciding to take a few years off to have a baby is a great family choice but it will NEVER be a smart career choice for a woman.
Feminist have to get over the dangerous myth that “they can have it all”.
They have to drop the fairy tale that says I can make any choices I want and don’t need to make sacrifices in another area of my life for it.
I’m sorry but anyone who believes in this is just plain ignorant and needs to grow up.
So back to asking what the Right vs. Wrong question is..
What is the BEST question for Women to ask themselves and seriously address?
How about this..
How do I fulfill my natural desires as a Woman to successfully have the following experiences in my life?
Education
Wife
Mother
Career
Personal Growth
Should I concentrate on just an education and career and worry about marriage and children later on?
Well many women who answer yes to that end up being without husband and child because they decided to ignore mother nature.
They simply got old before they knew it and ran out of time to attract a good mate or to have children.
OR..
These women have managed to get married but have focused so much on their careers that their husbands and families are neglected and the stress of it adds to the roughly 60% and rising divorce rates that we see in the US now.
And once again.. most of these women end up for the long terms being completely lonely and disadvantaged..
How about this for a solution..
Why don’t we do the best we can to promote Women to have successful marriages and family life FIRST?
Gee Whiz..
Maybe a loving family might give women far DEEPER and LASTING support then any particular job or “equality” based legislation that was meant to “protect” them.
Maybe a successful woman’s life is built like a pyramid with a stable family at the foundation. And once that is secured then she can start building up the other things she desires as well.
And Maybe.. Just Maybe..
The State has absolutely NO BUSINESS interfering in a Woman’s life with a politicians sly offer of assistance to her which is really a naked grab on their part for more power.
I appreciate your comments but I think you should stop blaming the Western World and start blaming feminist and the prevailing attitudes of North American Women who believe that they can ignore a stable family life at their own peril..
This only creates an environment where these women go into denial and want to blame and persecute Men for their own shortcomings.
And believe me..
I have seen first hand the chaos and destruction here in Russia that comes when a well meaning but naive group of people historically believe that “equality” is the road to prosperity and happiness.
And coming from the US..
I have seen the destruction brought upon families, men, women and their children when these same ideas take hold and are intentionally exploited by some politician who says “I feels your pain”.
This is something that I don’t think you truly want as a well meaning woman.
Thanks again,
GL
February 6, 2008 at 3:11 am
E,
Women are not equal to men.
However, women are closest to being like men - the shadow of hyper-masculinity - after becoming the most unequal to men.
Mothers, like men, are the three dimensional shadow of a hyper-masculinity - a masculinity on a higher plane, like the plane of Spirits or God.
The only way for a woman to become a mother is to surrender herself completely to a man. Through an act of complete inequality, a woman becomes most equal to a man.
February 6, 2008 at 3:35 am
doamna, your phrase “power-under-control, courteous masculinity” sums up that primal attraction beautifully. A man who seems to wield a lot of power but will temper it for (and use it to the advantage of) me and me only.
That seems related to the explanation I once heard from a woman about why so many women are irresistibly attracted to the bad boy: The hope that, while he may be violent and out of control with the rest of the world, I will be important enough to him that he won’t treat me that way.
So there’s a light side and a dark side to everything.
February 6, 2008 at 3:38 am
Lurker,
You’ll only encourage him, no matter what you say.
February 6, 2008 at 4:14 am
Craig, stop feeding the troll.
February 6, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Hey rw_man!
Thank you for taking the time to reply back to me. It’s really appreciated.
But I don’t think you got all of my point about feminism. Your ideas about feminism stemming from promoting proper family ideals is a start and a good one as well. However, what happens to those women who are already being starved out of life because they are women or those women who are killed for bearing a baby girl instead of a boy? The West doesn’t really have these problems as much as certain developing countries have certain family values that show women as integral to a families growth, women are also seen as lesser and expendable. I think then its up to the state to help if there is no one else around to mend those wounds. Maybe you would call this help Socialism, Marxism…I don’t necessarily ascribe to any of these movements but whatever its called, the help is usually needed and needed badly
Your argument is a anti-Western feminism argument and a good one at that…but it doesn’t encompass all regions in the world. Your assumption is that everyone is being treated well in the culture already, men and women, and women just WANT more as opposed to NEEDING more. I don’t see needing the essentials as stealing as I see it as taking what is rightfully yours to have: the basic fundamental human rights, the right to be seen as a person in this world. And that is what feminism is supposed to embody, giving women the right to equity thus promoting equality WITHIN THE SYSTEM. I understand your views and many of your commenter’s views on women being culturally unequal or, in terms of gender, second to men. Does this also mean that they should suffer the consequences of this difference by being the poorest gender? The less educated about their body gender? Because this is what happens on a world wide scale - poverty has a gender, alarming rates of pride killings have a gender…and that’s of women. And healing that gap is called feminism and it might be naive and it might be unattainable but those women need all the support that a system can get…because leaving it up to their respective male counterparts doesn’t work all the time.
I hope you’re having a good day and I look forward to your response.
February 6, 2008 at 6:08 pm
E,
You have to look at the end result of the cure you are prescribing for these travesties. Feminism presents unintended consequences. There are other solutions.
-Mick
February 6, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Hi E,
Again I appreciate your well intentioned post because the positions you take are very common liberal policies that have been promoted to great fanfare for many years but still have not (and never will) achieve their desired goals.
Legislation is not the solution and on some level I think you understand this as a futile exercise.
The famous economist Thomas Sowell once made the greatest observation about the true effectiveness of any liberal policies ability to promote “peace” or “equality” in any troubled region of the world. He used the Israel and Palestinian conflict as a great example.
He said that if diplomatic talks and peace agreements really worked..
Then Israel and it’s neighbors should be the most peaceful region in the world because it has the greatest number of peace agreements signed in history.
Obviously the whole concept of peace agreements has turned out to be a terrible joke. Hitler proved this very well with every peace agreement he violated and thereby created a terrible new level of conflict with each paper he “agreed to”.
The same principal can be applied to women who are terribly abused or exploited in developing countries as you mentioned.
How in the world would you legislate protection for these women in a country that is not to far removed from anarchy, chaos and poverty?
The sad answer is that you can’t..
In either case with preventing wars or preventing abuse the ONLY long term solution is Free Market ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT which very effectively brings higher living standards and better education to any group of people over time.
We have seen this time and time again through history.. compare the ability of any nation or people to be civilized and peaceful when they come from poor nations or from developed ones.
You could easily look at Germany and Japan before and during WW2 and compare that to their post war “modern miracle” development period.
You don’t think of Japan or Germany being barbaric warlike nations or peoples today now do you?
Winston Churchil said it best.. and let me paraphrase here.
“If you are liberal when you are in your 20’s that’s fine because it shows you have a heart. But if you are a liberal when you are in your 30’s it only proves that you are a fool.”
The only way to “cure” barbaric behavior is not through some well intentioned but foolish attempts to “legislate” fairness or equality for women..
Even the democrats and socialists of the world understand this but still cater to the usually ignorant masses with the right liberal code words of “equality and peace” in an attempt to do a classic bait and switch just to grab power.
This is a very old game.. Lenin, Mao, Hitler, Stalin.. the biggest butchers history has ever seen have all used this classic political game to gain dictatorial power..
The only way to solve the problems you talk about is to raise the economic conditions of the homelands of these women so they can have real economic power and value to expand their choices for where and how they wish to live.
The government can never truly solve these problems.. they almost always end up creating bigger ones.
Do you really think that the chinese government can really stop the selective killing of infant girls in their country with legislation?
Sadly, it will never put a dent into that barbaric practice..
However Charles Darwin can..
Because when some villages have a ratio of 20 boys to 1 girl.. natural selection and common sense will finally take hold and make parents realize that a girl in that environment is EXTREMELY Valuable and this value will not only protect her but will shift the balance of power greatly into her favor.
Feminism is NOT a healing gap as you describe it..
It is only a sad and ineffective way to make naive liberals feel good about something that doesn’t work.
They do this because they wrongly believe that they can take a short cut towards world peace by voting for a socialist politician who knows how to make people feel good with his or her words but has no real ability to legislate any change towards real “equality”.
The only true equality is the equality in opportunity and not in results.. and this is always driven long term by a free market and free democratic principals put into place once the country is mature enough to understand it’s own responsibility towards itself.
Now here’s the most important point I want you to realize..
At the core of any strong free market and democratic nation.. There needs to be STRONG and lasting FAMILIES to care for their own family members and not the government coming in to try to do this job.
The more numerous and stronger families you have the less need there is for government “assistance”.
When you talk about the ability of either Feminism or Free Markets, Economic growth and Families to make changes you are comparing a drop of water to an ocean.. there is simply no comparison.
If you truly desire positive changes in this world.. I would challenge you to spend your precious energy promoting loving, lasting and stable families like I am trying to instead of something like Socialism and Feminism that actually creates far more destruction.
Have a good one..
GL
February 7, 2008 at 2:19 am
Hey!
Thanks for your response, it was helpful. I see what you mean in terms of needing a free market to balance the economy. However, even in the free market economies, women are still on the bottom pay scale making considerably less than men for doing the same job, still the face of poverty (especially minority women within North America)and are penalized for their want of a family. The family unit indeed should be the first place in which you learn proper values. However, now those skills aren’t as valued anymore, especially in a free market economy. And women coming in with strong family values who want to have a family and be able to help their family by working some a few hours a day sometimes have to chose their job over their families to pay the bills. Your formula works wonders for those who are favored within the society but those aren’t, they struggle to get by. And those who have “it”, usually rich white men, are reluctant to give it. And by “it” I mean power, influence and access. It’s called privilege. Gendered privilege. And its true, equality seems to be unattainable, especially within a society that favors a certain class, a certain gender, a certain race.
Maternity leave is paying less and less each year and unless you have someone supporting you, a spouse or your family for example, most of the time it is hardly enough to feed both you and your baby adequately. Not to mention if you can’t afford to stay home because your husband doesn’t make enough, babysitting is another cost that you needs to be thought about…I’m not even going to get started on that.
With the cost of living going up every year, women spend a lot more time on the job, especially if they or their families could not afford the higher education to get them a better paying job. And as much as a free market economy is beneficial for a lot of people, the people on the bottom still suffer. Maybe there isn’t absolute poverty in North America but at the end of the day, even though the access is there, compared to the men that hold positions of to give hand outs to society, women beside them are few in number.
I’m not suggesting that feminism is supposed to heal anything. Just as anti-racism isn’t the be all that ends all in dealing with racial politics. Its a statement that shows that the discrimination is there and that there needs to be something done about it. And, like white privilege within North America, a lot of men AND women do not realize that it is there and instead of understanding and coming to terms with it, they feel guilty and lash out at it. But it exists and its harmful. And feminism sees this, acknowledges it in many different ways with many different viewpoints. Feminism is an umbrella term. There are so many different types of feminism that want to rectify the problem of equity within the world and it comes in all different backgrounds of thought! Socialism and marxism being a few of them, liberalism, feminist theory that focuses on the family, the economy, the media, right wing left wing, what have you. Feminism isn’t just one idea, its many…many different pathways towards one goal: to have women treated fairly within a world that sees them second to the needs of men. Feminism is not a system in itself with ideas and policies.
Also…about natural selection? I don’t know about that one, man. Leaving a society to kill until they smarten up isn’t the greatest solution, if you ask me
Anyway, what I’m trying to say is that even though access might be there, there are still barriers that stop women, whether it be cultural stigma, lack of financial support, &tc. And yes, coming from a strong family is wonderful and ideal but the world isn’t ideal. And it’s naive to think that all families are the same, that all cultures are the same, that all experiences are the same. Strengthening families might be the key to one door but what about the doors that are already closed?
Your anti-”feminist” stance is one of someone who is ignorant of the definition and what it is trying to achieve.
(I’m sorry, I’m speaking about two things at once, rushing to get off the computer to go to bed!)
Also, and I’m really curious as to what your answer will be, what do you suggest we do about these women in developing countries that are being oppressed by their men, their fathers and the system, while we are waiting for their economies to change or get better?
Is it like cooking, if a pot of Shchi is partially burnt, do we toss it and make a better batch?
Hope you’re doing well
E
February 7, 2008 at 4:38 am
E,
You seem to have a very “victim” oriented perspective on life for women in the world. And again I find this to be completely typical of all Feminists and Socialists.
This “Victim Mentality” never gets you or anyone else far in life.
And it just ends up creating a vicious cycle where all you or any other woman can do is blame the government and not take the hard steps necessary to improve your own quality of life.
In the ghetto they call this “crabs” which implies crabs in a bucket all pulling each other down and not allowing anyone to get out.
And E this is what I want you to realize..
THIS IS EXACTLY why I promote Russian and FSU Women as ideal candidates for Men to create future families with.
Let me just get straight to the point as to why your feminist arguements just falls flat..
I appreciate this debate and I can go as long as you want..
BUT..
Your various complaints of injustice and hardships for your fellow North American sisters are falling on deaf ears as far as I’m concerned.
Am I being a cruel bastard for saying something like this?
No I’m not..
I’m saying this because I simply see one undeniable fact that you don’t since I’m assuming you’ve never been to this part of the world.
Russian and FSU women as a general population get by with MUCH LESS and do MUCH MORE the their north american counterparts.
You are complaining about things like Maternity leave payouts getting lower?
Are you kidding me?
That hardly exist here. Yet these women still do what they need to do to realize their dream of having children and being strong and beautiful women..
Do they bitch about it?
Again.. are you kidding me?
They just quietly forge ahead doing what they need to do to give their children and husbands the best that they can..
And also they mostly still manage to hold full time jobs. And keep in mind that the average wage here is $300 per month and commodity food prices are roughly the same as in North America.
These women are tough..
And I’ve often compared them to being an Iron Fist in a Velvet Glove for a very good reason.
If they were given a fraction of the opportunities in the North America (that come from a healthy free market economy and NOT the government) that you think of as entitlements they would completely kick ass and take over the place.
They would simply not focus on what they don’t have and move forward with what they need to have.
Yet on top of all of that.. they still do everthing they can to retain their feminity and beauty.
You see this is one of the key reasons I created this blog..
Once I came here I totally realized that all the things that modern feminism promotes today are a complete joke based on lazy, jealous, victim oriented or complacent women who don’t want to take the hard and necessary steps truly needed to improve their lives.
No one said life was easy..
But the bottom line is that you can decide to hand out fish to the masses and see what happens..
Or
You can teach them how to go out and fish..
E if you really want to change the lives of women..
Feminism is not the answer..
Teaching women how to be internally strong and raise strong families is the only way to go.
Because when this is done correctly strong families will always outlast tough times just like they were always intended to do..
North American Women only appear strong on the outside with their often aggressive mimics of traditionally male traits. ie. acting like men..
However NA Women as a group are much more internally weaker and fragile then what I see here.
For example I have never heard or seen a Russian woman who had any need to take Prozac or any other anti-depresant.
And I can assure you the environment here is much tougher on women then you can imagine but I don’t see these women running to the corner drug store to self-medicate themselves.
And in case your wondering.. the rampant alcholism that you hear about in Russia is primarily a Male thing..
Obviously there is much work to be done..
E I apologize if I come off with a harsh tone..
But frankly you and many other feminist women who hold the self-destructive ideas that you do need to be talked to in a very blunt and straight manner to hopefully understand a deeper level of reality and to get your lives back on track focused on what will truly help you and away from the distractions that waste your valuable time and energy in this precious life of yours.
Take care of yourself E,
GL
February 7, 2008 at 5:55 am
E,
I’m going to take the additional step to answer some of your points in your last comment which I wanted to keep seperate from my previous comment.
“However, even in the free market economies, women are still on the bottom pay scale making considerably less than men for doing the same job,”
E Women generally make less then Men for a VERY SIMPLE reason..
Men are historically and genetically much greater and more aggressive RISK TAKERS in life and in the work place.
We are the ones who go out for the hunt and constantly run the risk of getting injured or killed. This same trait runs true even in White Collar work. Men will take much bigger chances that could sink their careers and their personal lives. You cannot make more money if you are not willing to take bigger risks..
This is one of the laws of the universe that you cannot change.
Less Risk.. Less Reward..
More Risk.. More Reward..
“still the face of poverty (especially minority women within North America)and are penalized for their want of a family.”
E the last time I checked Asian women are still considered minorities too but they as a group have pay scales that are completely on parity with the top earning segements. Asian women it seems also seem to be better educated as a group.. Hmm.. I wonder if there is a relationship here??
So let’s be specific here.. are you talking more about Latino and African American Women? What is their overall standing in education?
This is beginning to sound like an bad excuse session to me..
“The family unit indeed should be the first place in which you learn proper values. However, now those skills aren’t as valued anymore, especially in a free market economy.”
E do you expect someone to pay you for brushing your teeth every morning?
Probably not right?
Then why would you try to foolishly put a dollar value on family responsibilities or values? This is an outright feminist propaganda fraud designed to convince women that money is the only value they should measure in their lives.
” And women coming in with strong family values who want to have a family and be able to help their family by working some a few hours a day sometimes have to chose their job over their families to pay the bills.”
I’ve said this before.. I’ll say it again.. No one can have it completely both ways..
You want kids?
wonderful.. but you better be prepared to sacrifice your career.
You want to be a career woman?
Wonderful.. but as long as you do that you have no business trying to be a mother to a baby or young child as far as I’m concerned.
Women who are in denial about this fact of life and bitch about it are showing the ultimate in ignorance and stupidity in my book.. To whine on top of it is just simply outrageous.
” Your formula works wonders for those who are favored within the society but those aren’t, they struggle to get by. And those who have “it”, usually rich white men, are reluctant to give it. And by “it” I mean power, influence and access. It’s called privilege. Gendered privilege. And its true, equality seems to be unattainable, especially within a society that favors a certain class, a certain gender, a certain race.”
Hmm.. so I’m going to assume you are talking about minority women again.. so let’s assume Black women ok?
Well E.. Condi Rice is one of my greatest heros..
And I would just love for you to have this same conversation with her to see how she feels about that.
I’d love for you to read about her background and to see whether or not she came from a privlidged background or whether someone just magically handed her power.
Hmm.. maybe it has something to do with a little thing we call “Hard Work” and “Higher Education”?
“Maternity leave is paying less and less each year and unless you have someone supporting you, a spouse or your family for example, most of the time it is hardly enough to feed both you and your baby adequately.”
I’ve already addressed Materinity Leave previously and I’ll tell you it is just another socialist nail in the economic coffin of our society.
Now as far as feeding your baby is concerned?
Just how much food does a baby eat and how much does that really cost?
Where are you eating? Are you cooking?
FYI Russian Women rarely eat out.. they cook for their families.
Again is this just a case of someone foolishly living beyond their means and not wanting to face up to that fact?
I’m sorry E but I’m not buying this one either.. and frankly this line you just put out really stretches your credibility..
“you can’t afford to stay home because your husband doesn’t make enough, babysitting is another cost that you needs to be thought about…I’m not even going to get started on that.”
Again.. where are you living?
What are you renting?
Did you take on too much debt in credit cards, car payments and mortgages?
Again I don’t buy this E because most Americans depend way to much on credit..
So when you say you can’t pay the bills what you are really saying is that you spend too much..
Babysitting? How about deciding to be a real mother and taking care of your kid which is the best thing for kids in the first place?
“With the cost of living going up every year, women spend a lot more time on the job, especially if they or their families could not afford the higher education to get them a better paying job.”
You are joking right?
In Russia you basically only have one shot to go to a university..
In the US there are countless continuing and adult education offerings for low cost or almost free.. not to mention all the student financing packages which are available which again don’t exist here.
Again E.. your credibility is fading on this one fast..
” And as much as a free market economy is beneficial for a lot of people, the people on the bottom still suffer.”
When in the history of the world have the people on the bottom never suffered?
Again an extremely naive statement that refuses to acknowledge even the most basic tenats of life.
“Maybe there isn’t absolute poverty in North America but at the end of the day, even though the access is there, compared to the men that hold positions of to give hand outs to society, women beside them are few in number.”
Ok this is the biggest fish story I’ve heard so far..
Women in the US are starting to become bigger wage earners then Men.
Haven’t you heard of the wide spread phenonmena of Stay at Home Dads?
How does this happen?
From welfare checks?
No it happens because many Men have spouses that make more then they do.
E here’s the deal..
This last statement on your part FIRMLY confirms your disconnect from reality and your denial.
For some reason you feel more comfortable in Victim mode and this statement especially verifies this.
I’m trying to be civil to you but you need to here this straight up because it’s the only thing that can possibly help you.
“And, like white privilege within North America”
Like I said I think you need to have a talk with people like Colin Powell, Opera Winfrey, Condi Rice, Michael Jordan and others like them who have worked hard to get what they have in life.
Statements like this are pushing you further into the write off as whacky zone.. and I really don’t wish that for you..
“There are so many different types of feminism that want to rectify the problem of equity within the world and it comes in all different backgrounds of thought! Socialism and marxism being a few of them,”
Your ignorance of economic history with this statement is typical of liberals..
And you have already failed to listen to what I said previously when I compared Feminism or Socialism to a drop and Free Markets and Democratic principals as an Ocean in terms of real power to empower people and improve their lives..
At this point no matter what I demonstrate to you about what real poverty and real progress is about you will just focus on your Marxist fantasy land ideologies and not be able to get past that point.
I’m disappointed in these comments because you are only spouting dogma now..
” to have women treated fairly within a world that sees them second to the needs of men. ”
Gross assumption..
Again typical liberal strategy..
Lets make a bunch of unconfirmed and bogus statements and throw it on the wall to see what sticks.. and hopefully someone will start believing it as gospel if we say it long and loud enough..
“Also…about natural selection? I don’t know about that one, man. Leaving a society to kill until they smarten up isn’t the greatest solution, if you ask me”
Ok so what is the solution?
You want another country like the US to invade China and kill tons of people to protect those babies?
Again liberal Modus Operandi..
Just loudly bitch about any situation and NEVER offer a real viable solution.
Just close your eyes and hope that electing some socialist to power will stop all of this when it cannot..
“Anyway, what I’m trying to say is that even though access might be there, there are still barriers that stop women, whether it be cultural stigma, lack of financial support, &tc. And yes, coming from a strong family is wonderful and ideal but the world isn’t ideal. And it’s naive to think that all families are the same, that all cultures are the same, that all experiences are the same. Strengthening families might be the key to one door but what about the doors that are already closed?”
Yes families are different.. BUT..
Strong families all share common traits which protect, nuture and empower family members to be productive, healthy, successful and happy members of society.
You are touting the exception rather then the rule E and that is very dangerous.
Push what works and make it stronger..
Don’t focus on a country or cultures weakness because that doesn’t do anything for the long term..
Strong families are the only answer and you should start understanding this by now.
As far as “closed doors” are concerned..
I live by the adage “When God closes doors there are always bigger ones he puts next to them waiting to be opened..”
I would strongly suggest that you start doing the same.
“Your anti-”feminist” stance is one of someone who is ignorant of the definition and what it is trying to achieve.”
No E I’m VERY CLEAR what feminism and socialism says it’s trying to achieve and what it actually achieves.
And that is Disaster.
You should be smart enough to check your history to verify this..
You think the USSR collapsed because it didn’t have enough “equality” being promoted?
I challenge you to study this..
” what do you suggest we do about these women in developing countries that are being oppressed by their men, their fathers and the system, while we are waiting for their economies to change or get better?”
Who is waiting for anything as far as the economy goes?
And it’s always the socialist politician who puts up bariers to real economic growth with protectionist and isolationist agendas..
Now how’s that for an irony?
I’ve seen countries completely turn around their fortunes in a little over 5 years.. That is extraordinary and benefits everyone within it as well.
Your tone again of Men being oppressors to women is just way off mark and offensive.
How would you feel if I just flat out said that all women are bitches?
Unfortunately your tone is why feminism is a fraudulent, destructive and absolutely dangerous ideology which I would strongly recommend that you reject and disconnect away from your identity.
However if feminism is part of your identity then you will never listen to common sense and logic..
I wish you well..
GL
February 7, 2008 at 7:54 am
GL, you covered all the bases pretty well…a lot better than I could have. Kudos on you.
The only thing I could really add is about the part where she tried to say that there was “white privilege” in North America.
I am very good friends with a young black man who grew up in Detroit who had to endure the very harsh realities of that city. He’s seen crime all around him, people getting mugged, people getting beat up, he once even saw somebody get shot over drugs.
Nevertheless, he plowed his way through, he took his education very, very seriously, he often asked me for help with math because he knew that a strong understanding of basic math would be vital to his success. He never once complained “boo hoo hoo, I’m so disadvantaged” or “boo hoo hoo, white people are so privileged over me.” Now he’s enrolled in a very good college, he’s captain of the basketball team, he’s doing great academically, and he’ll be receiving his hard-earned degree at the end of this academic year.
But if he would have spent his whole life complaining about “white privilege”, then he would have never even made that first step.
February 7, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Hello E,
Couple of questions: if you don’t agree with Marxism or Socialism as movements, and you are still very concerned about the plight of women in general in the world, what are YOU going to do? If it is really that important to you that no woman is harmed solely on the point of her gender, and no one else will do anything about it, will YOU as a person do something about it, or will you be happy simply to talk and try to get the product of heavy taxation to throw money at the problem? Someone so truly concerned about a problem that they cannot focus on making their own life “ideal” will focus their compassion into the problem and become something of a martyr to the cause like, say, Amy Carmichael, Florence Nightengale, Mother Theresa, and hundreds of other unnamed women who believed they could do good at the cost of not having personally a normal woman’s life.
Which is it? Become the kind of woman who will individually and personally make an “ideal” life, improve the intimate life, make a strong, successful family. Or, choose heroism, a life of dedication to a cause. Personally.
Or would you depend upon corrupt government (all of them ARE corrupt) to fulfill your dream of “equality” and world peace for you?
February 7, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Hey again!
Thank you for all your points, everyone.
First I’m going to answer Doamna. D, this is a question that I struggle with at this very moment (And yes, all governments are corrupt in one way or another…sad but true). I really want a family and I want to teach them the values that I have been brought up with and have them go out into the world teaching those same values. But sometimes I feel like if I don’t dedicate myself wholly and solely to the cause, nothing will be done. But I’m leaning towards making a strong, successful family and personal enlightenment. I already try (Really, really try) to live my life as an example to most people because the personal is political. I’m not a fan of just talking about it or just waiting on a government to do something, I want to do something personally to help as much as I can. I thank God everyday for giving me the means of acquiring knowledge and want to use what I’ve learned through my family and my life experiences to do better.
Luke, I loved the example with your friend. I have known a few people like that in my life as well who haven’t cried about white privilege and have been successful…but should I assume that from your statement that you believe that its okay? That white privilege is something that should just be overcome and not fought against? Because yes, many people have overcome the odds, many many minorities have…that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t unnecessarily hard for them and that doesn’t make it right. What I was saying about white privilege was that its a form of discrimination, and that its wrong, much like gender discrimination. And White privilege is there, please, please don’t try to deny it, its naive to make a claim that it isn’t. And very meritocratic. Life in North America, as much as it might seem that way, isn’t [for everyone] like an online video game where if you put in the hours, you’ll get the pay. I hate to suggest reading because I don’t want assumptions made that my arguments are solely based on just a few citations that might be weak and can be chopped up but http://www.uakron.edu/centers/conflict/docs/whitepriv.pdf
is a good read nonetheless. Read it and tell me what you think. And please if you read it, please don’t mention friends of yours that “haven’t experienced systemic racism”. You don’t know all the minority peoples in the world.
GL, your tone wasn’t harsh to me. It just sounds of someone with conviction, someone who wants to drive their point home and have me understand and I appreciate it a lot.
I think we could on and on about this topic because we both have different standpoints and seem to be missing the points of each others arguments so I think I will end it after these few paragraphs before we go around in circles. Please respond as well.
First, by crediblility, what you mean by that is lost by me. It’s a conversation on your website. I don’t have a Ph.D but I am well read in the cause of gender discrimination. And it sucks. There are alot of professionals who would believe in your points more than mine and vice versa. I’m not here to prove to you anything, I’m just stating facts and observations, things I’ve read and learned and seen…and so are you. I’m not trying to be credible to you, I just came to debate with you and I want your input about what I’m saying, not your opinions on my credibility.
In your last post you are offering cases and not seeing the overall picture, much like Luke who offered the case of his friend. Condi Rice I’m not as familiar with because I’m not from the US. In my country I know of many minority women who have beat the odds. However, they have a lot more odds to beat than, say, a white male. And people pull through and get where they have to and work as hard as they can. So for those few who do, that makes gender and racial discrimination correct? Is this the American dream that is fondly spoken about, where everyone can do it as long as they work hard? That’s…pretty naive. It would have been even more naive 30-40 years ago. And yes, some women are making more than men, some minority women a lot better than others…but the overall picture is that women, as a whole, are not doing even close to as well as men are throughout the world because they are women. You say that if a woman choses to pursue a career she shouldn’t have the option of having a family…what do you suggest she does then if her family will not have her in the house if she isn’t working, if she doesn’t have a husband to support her, if her husband left her or if she left her husband and has kids?
The point is the system, like you said, isn’t for women. Simply put, it doesn’t cater to women who want families and wants to spend the majority of their time with their families…its a system for the risk taking man who can spend all their time on the job, working towards the betterment of a company. And you don’t see anything wrong with that.
*shrugs*
I don’t know what else to tell you.
How are we supposed to build strong families if these are the choices that women have?
Choices given to them by a system which isn’t there to help them but others who can do a better job? Tough luck, right? If you can’t do it, we’ll get someone who can.
So if you are a single mother, you should chose between your kids or your job because no one is there to turn to. Or maybe you’ll say that its her fault she’s single in the first place because of whatever reason and she should buck up, not speak and do what she has to do.
You say that my victim stance isn’t shocking to you, that women in Russia don’t complain and just do what they have to do and that admirable…and you’re right, it is admirable. I know a lot of strong women who are in the same situations who don’t complain, they just do what they have to and are struggling to get by and they do, or they don’t, depending. I don’t know of any of these women who are eating out all the time. In my community, this was unfathomable, buying junk food wasn’t cost efficient. Once again, you are speaking about a certain sort of family, possibly a white North American family and like I said before, there are so many different types of stories out there. I knew of women that were barely surviving during the 1940’s when they couldn’t go into washrooms made for white people or eat in white restaurants. That was happening up to the other day in South Africa and I’m sure a lot of people didn’t complain and whine about it. But GL…that doesn’t make it any less wrong. Just because someone doesn’t whine and cry about a situation doesn’t mean they aren’t a victim to injustice. You assume that if the person doesn’t acknowledge the exists or care about it much, that the injustice no longer exists? And if they aren’t complaining, nothing should be done?
On a whole, some women are doing great, some women not so good, hell, some are doing better than men but overall, women are the poorest people on earth because of their gender, minority women even worse.
I didn’t come to offer a solution, and I’m sorry, I don’t have one. I don’t know much about how to help a country’s economy and whatnot. Neither do I ascribe to a feminist theory because they all have their short-comings, much like all political and economic theories. Some get the job done better than others but they are all flawed because we are flawed. I’m not just saying that money or handouts are the answer either, I’m not saying that anything is the answer. I’m just making an observation, a moral judgement, on a system that judges people on their gender and decides if they are worthy of pushing further within the world. I don’t know a better system to put in place but one that favors the pursuits of the favoured in most cases women, minorities, people with disabilities is wrong. Is it wrong to say this or should I have a plan of how to fix everything to state this? Should I be better educated to say that women being turned down for jobs because they might have babies later on life is wrong or that paying women less for doing the same work as a man is wrong as well?
And like I said in my first quote is that feminism has nothing to do with the things you are talking about, it isn’t the be all that ends all, it is a number of theories and not just one. Radical feminism is the closest feminism to what you are speaking about most of the time in your blog, or maybe cultural feminism, not womanism, that promotes a stable and intimate family and which is geered towards mostly African American feminists, not Christian feminism, not Ecofeminism, and so on…you are speaking about one specific sort of feminism and the harmful effects of it if taken too far.
You don’t have to hear what I have to say, I’m just saying be more specific when you are speaking of feminism, understand what it is, where it comes from, who’s promoting it and where they are getting their ideas from…that’s all. Don’t just state feminism like it is the cause for the heartache of men everywhere.
Looking forward to all of your responses and sorry if its a bit jumbled, I have limited internet access.
E
February 8, 2008 at 3:01 pm
E,
I had a teacher in grade school (a woman) who when we began studying issues of slavery during American History had the entire class slap their hands.
Can someone spell R-E-P-A-R-A-T-I-O-N-S?
You are sincere and you are also sincerely confused.
-Mick
February 8, 2008 at 4:13 pm
“That was happening up to the other day in South Africa and I’m sure a lot of people didn’t complain and whine about it. But GL…that doesn’t make it any less wrong.” (E)
I live here, and I often hear from poor, working-class BLACK people how it was BETTER under Apartheid (economically better, less crime, fewer unsavoury influences on their children & overall better values, etc.)
I do not support institutionalised racial discrimination in any way. All I’m saying is that the issues are much more multi-faceted and complex than liberals and feminists like you make them out to be.
Apply this to the issue of women from middle-to-upper income backgrounds here or in the US or wherever and you see the same thing. These women were happier and more fulfilled 50 years ago before internalising feminist attitudes and behaviours…
February 8, 2008 at 4:15 pm
PS. E.. where are you from?
February 9, 2008 at 2:48 am
E you seem to be ignoring the previous comments I’ve made in response to you.
You haven’t addressed any of the answers I’ve carefully laid out for you that you have asked questions about.
Instead you are doing something that all Liberals do and that is NOT Stick to the point of discussion and to throw as many complaints of the world you see on to the disussion to confuse the issue.
Please don’t do that if you want me to take you seriously and to continue talking to you.
You keep on going back in circles to the same victim mentality which is just simply not going to help anyone especially yourself.
The bottom line is that you and other feminist are ignoring the most basic law of the universe and that is SUPPLY AND DEMAND.
Let me give you one final example and I think we should just move on from this topic because you need to seriously contemplate this without looping back around with another variant of the same “victim” arguement you are giving.
Here in Siberia.. we have many open market stalls.
In these market stalls you will see COUNTLESS Women all selling the same fruits and vegetables right next to each other down a long row of stalls.
Any person who comes here to go shopping is immeditely offered many choices to choose from and everything that is being offered is just a cheap commodity with no real way to tell the difference on each.
These market stall vendors obviously live pretty poor lives. But they all CHOSE to be working here in this precise location.
They made a POOR CHOICE for how they wish to create a living for themselves because they chose a HIGHLY COMPETITIVE and POOR LOCATION to try to make money.
At some point they either wise up and think..
“Hey I should probably try to find a less competitive environment to sell my products and become more successful..”
OR
“Hey this life is hard BUT I’m not going to get off my ass and change anything that I’m so used to doing so instead I’ll just continue to bitch about how the government is not helping women like me out enough..”
E every problem you have mentioned basically boils down to this above example.
You either do something about it and work hard at it untill your life changes..
OR
You don’t and suffer the consequences..
I don’t care what “variant” of feminism or socialism you are promoting because at it’s core you are still dealing with the issues and example above.
E you took the step to visit this blog and to learn more and hopefully have an open mind.. and I commend you for that.
However your next challenge is much harder and that is to get out of denial and to disconnect your Identity from that of a “victim”.
E Do you TRULY want to help other Women?
Great then this is how you do it..
Get yourself out of this mental and emotional hole you are in and make yourself happy and successful.
And while you are doing this just keep in mind how many other women’s lives you can touch by becoming a leader to them and showing them how to have strength like you.
Feminist/Socialist “Victim and Jealous” Ideology is NOT an agent for positive change in Women’s lives.
You are..
So go out and do it lady..
GL
February 9, 2008 at 6:02 am
http://www.nomarriage.com/why_foreign_women_are_better.html Was serfing on the web , think this would be great addition
February 9, 2008 at 10:54 am
GL, once again you covered all the bases pretty well. So kudos on you once again.
And Socon, I never knew that many black South Africans thought that it was better under apartheid, but I find it believable since liberals are now in control of South Africa, and liberals always screw everything up pretty badly and often make things worse than they were in the first place. Kudos on you, too.
The only thing I think I could add is to say that the existence of “eco-feminism” is absolutely no surprise to me.
I go to college in a very ultra-rural area. here there are only 3 police in the whole town. And usually only 1 of them is on duty, and the other two are off duty lounging around somewhere. And usually it’s the same guy (the sheriff) who is on duty. So the State doesn’t have a very big “enforcement agency” around here. And even if the sheriff DID start arresting people and taking them to jail over bullcrap feminazi laws, everybody knows everybody else, and everybody knows who the sheriff is, and there’s only one of him and something like 500 of us (I’m not counting the liberal feminist college students, I’m counting the townspeople), so everybody would get really mad at him if he started arresting people over laws that literally nobody out here (besides some of the liberal feminist college students) agrees with, and I doubt they’d take it sitting down for long.
Anyway, as has been noted on at least a few antifeminist blogs, and as I have noted here in real life, there is considerably less feminazi tyranny in the rural U.S than in the suburban and urban U.S., because as I’ve pointed out there’s barely any police, and the people are armed to the teeth as well.
The environmentalist lobby wants to (by law) block off a very large portion of the land in the USA as unusable “wildland”, which can never be used, and never be developed. That means that everybody will have to cram into cities and suburbs, where the feminists’ word is not only law, but they have police all over the place to enforce all their bullcrap laws, and noone dares oppose them.
Environmentalism is a scam, and given what I pointed out above, it’s no wonder that the feminazis have created “eco-feminism” so they could get in on the scam for their own vile purposes.
February 10, 2008 at 1:59 am
This quote hits the nail on the head:
“One of the hardest things for most men to grasp is that the feminist cultural norms they were indoctrinated into are absolutely destructive towards their dream of having a happy marriage with a beautiful and traditional lady.”
I am a Western Man & live in Odessa, Ukraine. I deal with Western men on a daily basis here & understand there perceptions of “The way we were brought up”. It sends shivers down my spine at times but the ladies here take it in there stride.
February 10, 2008 at 4:28 am
Hi Paul,
Just found a very interesting quote that confirms all of this.
“Men have been trained and conditioned by women, not unlike the way Pavlov conditioned his dogs, into becoming their slaves.”
The Manipulated Man, by Esther Vilar
Now get this..
This book was written in 1972!!
Will someone give this woman a medal and some recognition finally??
February 10, 2008 at 6:41 am
“However, even in the free market economies, women are still on the bottom pay scale making considerably less than men for doing the same job” (E)
This is absolutely bogus. A woman with the same education and the same years of experience, doing the same job as a man, makes exactly the same as him. This comes from US govt. statistics.
The feminist studies that purport to show that women make less than men are textbook examples of how to lie with statistics.
They take women’s salaries in the aggregate and compare them to men’s salaries in the aggregate. Then say “Women make 72% of what men make.” They leave you to conclude that that means “.. for doing the same job”, when it means nothing of the sort.
20 year olds make far less than 40 year olds in the aggregate. Is this age discrimination?
The fact is that the vast majority of women want jobs that are safe, secure, comfortable, with regular hours, or flexible hours (mother’s hours), and a steady paycheck. They don’t take the hard, sweaty, dirty, dangerous jobs, which pay more for that very reason. They shy away from self-employment and commission-based work where the paycheck isn’t assured but the potential payoff is higher. They don’t take jobs that take them away from home for long periods, like driving a truck or working on an oil rig. Statistics show they stay in a job far shorter than men do. If the company reorganizes and they are asked to relocate, they are much more likely to quit than move, whereas a man may have no choice in order to maintain the income to take care of his family. All of these factors contribute to men’s higher incomes overall. For a man, a paycheck is not just a little extra money, and a job is not a lifestyle choice.
I’ve seen so many women take their 12 weeks of maternity leave (excuse me, family leave, which men know implicitly would be career suicide to take), during which their company is forced to hold their job (making other employees, probably men, take up the slack for no extra pay), and then decide they don’t want to come back to work after all.
I’ve seen women with MBAs quit jobs because the working conditions got a little unpleasant, saying “I’m going to take some time off from work and figure out what I want to do.” Guess who doesn’t have that option in her family?
E, stop spouting feminist dogma from your wymyns studies classes and educate yourself about the real world.
February 10, 2008 at 6:48 am
GL, I first heard of Esther Vilar in Surviving the Feminization of America by Rich Zubaty. He quotes her a lot. His book gets a little bizarre at times, but it’s worth reading.
February 10, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Oh please, not another feminist diatribe again….. We’ve met the enemy of a stable, functioning society and it is feminism. It’s nothing but Marxism repackaged and it always results in atrocities such as the death of millions of Ukrainians from famine in the 1930’s. Only this time the logical outcome will be millions of people dead here in the U.S.
Taras
February 11, 2008 at 9:57 am
Thanks for the detailed stats Craig.
Always good to be able to seperate truth from fiction..
February 11, 2008 at 4:02 pm
I just wanted to end the myth that women are at the bottom of society; it is men and always has been. Go down an area were you find the homeless, what percentage of them are women?
Another example were men are kept down is, when their children are taken away from them and access is denied; an action the women group such as NOW support. And on top of that you have to pay much of your salary to a hostile woman, without access to your children. And should they fall behind with good reason and fall in debt and unable to pay the support they are labelled as deadbeat dads? And now debtors’ prison is back in fashion at the behest of these “caring” women.
Now which is worse, to have less wealth or not to have the ability to have a family that you can interact with. Not to have children whom you can hold? Men’s poverty is never measured because simply it is immeasurable.
Also the claim women are the poorest in the world. Can you provide facts or is it loosely thrown comment based on what some idiot has written. Do they take into account that a lot of women are housewives and the salary of the husband goes towards his family? Are they measuring the wealth of salaries from housewives? I bet they are.
As to violence: Men are the greatest receiver of violence and always have been.
——
As long ago as 1981, Straus, Gelles and Steinmetz discovered some of the data referred to by Kelly, reporting it in “Behind Closed Doors: Violence in the American Family.” Nearly 1.8 million American women were assaulted annually by their husbands that year — shameful data that was elevated for all to see via insightful ads posted everywhere trumpeting the fact that “Every 17 seconds a woman is assaulted by her husband.”
What the general public never saw, though, was the “real surprise,” to quote the authors: 2 million husbands (200 thousand more) who were assaulted by their wives.
——
Feminism is about victimhood and socialism. If it was about true justice you think it would have tried to eliminate DV in all forms and prompt loving families. Feminism does not prompt loving families and doesn’t even try to heal damaged ones. It just wants to punish men, simple as that. It hates men.
And no one talks about the mental anguish men go through by their wives. Men since time memorial are brought with stiff upper lip. They don’t nag and they don’t like to get others to interfere within their lives, which is a good thing. They believe the family life is private.
You want a better life within the family then heal them. Provide a system were families are taught how to deal with one another in a loving fashion. A system were bad traits are removed through education, even if the person slaps his/her spouse one too many times, they should not be sent to jail. They should be given a chance to cure their illness.
I mean I haven’t seen an inane call for children to be removed from their parents because their mother slapped their child after she lost her temper. Oh wait I have, feminism wants that; well only if the man slaps the child. If a woman does it she should go to counselling or they give her excuses, like she is under a lot of stress or that time of the month etc; which is in a way the lesser evil of the two. I don’t believe a mother should be separated from her child and the same goes for the biological father.
Feminism pure and simple is a solution provided by idiots. Life has always had hardship and will always continue to do so.
“you can’t afford to stay home because your husband doesn’t make enough, babysitting is another cost that you needs to be thought about…I’m not even going to get started on that.”
She makes a point here and a good one but her cause of the problem is wrong. In the UK 1930s average house price was 1.5 times the average salary, now it is over 7 times. We have a central bank with regulated money that is worthless; couple that with fractional monetary system and speculative market and what you get is an unstable economy. Fiat money value will always be debased as more of it is printed to be invested mainly in an overvalued speculative market and to help the (corporate) welfare state to function. It is a myth to think we live in a free market and anyone who thinks that way is delusional.
So she is right in saying life is hard, but more accurately it is actually getting harder and the reason for this is because of the semi-socialist system we have. The gap between rich and poor is increasing and the middle class is shrinking. Another reason is getting harder is because society is fragmenting, thanks to sexual liberation, feminism, individualism.
But this isn’t just a women’s issue but a human issue.
White privilege
I am not white and I will not say there isn’t discrimination. It is however small and insignificant. I don’t believe in positive discrimination or special treatments of minorities for the simple reason it separates us instead of uniting us. The best way to deal with it is if there is discrimination then the system should fine the company, and the fine goes back to charity and a fixed amount depending on lost salary should be handed to the one being discriminated. The amount should not be so large as to incite unscrupulous people to make a quick buck from it; it should be a fraction of “lost” annual salary.
Single Mothers
On a side not in the 50s some idiot decided that being a housewife and the ability to live off one salary was a form of slavery to women. Women should work to become useful. So the idiots’ movement came in the guise of feminism and the middle class began to die as the family got uprooted. Of course neither government nor corporations minded, it meant more tax and cheap labour. Hurrah & huzza for feminism as the current fruit of society is due to it success. So it has achieved what it has sowed. The great influx of single mothers is part of the failings of society and the fruits of feminism and sexual liberation. A society can’t function when it has become so defragmented, and it is a catch 22, to support single mother is to support the increase of single mothers. If you are SM, then you should get minimal help from the state. You should be forced to work and spend less time with your children; it is part of the sacrifice of your earned freedom and responsibility. In the olden d