Ok go ahead and read this article first and then check out my commentary below.
Why Russia’s wealthier women are still reluctant to go Dutch
By Shaun Walker in Moscow
Wednesday, 2 July 2008Billboards across Moscow advertising a women’s magazine are raising female consciousness by asking Russia’s fairer sex: “Are you ready to pay half to be independent?”
It’s a question with increasing relevance because growing numbers of young Russian women are moving into management positions, earning good salaries and boosting their spending power. But for most, the answer to the question for now is still a resounding “no”.
“When you go out with a guy, even if you’re just friends and there’s no romantic subtext, you would always expect him to pay,” says Svetlana Kolchik, deputy editor of Russia’s Marie Claire, which paid for the adverts. “When I discuss dates with my girlfriends, one of the first questions is ‘Did he pay for you?’ If he did, it’s always a good sign.”
Many Russians say the country’s dating culture is more traditional and romantic than in the West, and a large part of that involves the idea that the man should pay for everything and shower his date with gifts.
The extravagant jewellery, furs and cars that oligarchs dole out to their women are the stuff of legend but the philosophy – if not the scale – is the same among ordinary Russians.“I find Russian women to be a bit like Tamagotchi,” says one British expatriate who moved to Moscow a year ago and has enjoyed playing Casanova in the city. “You have to keep feeding them with meals out, little gifts, and so on, to keep them happy.”
At the end of any romantic dinner in Moscow, the waiter will automatically hand the bill to the man, and even if the woman wants to pay, it can be a problem. Olga, a 24-year-old journalist, explains that many of her friends keep their wallets in their handbags not out of stinginess but for the sake of their boyfriends’ pride. “With all the provincial beauties in town, there are 20 women for each decent man. If you get a decent man, you better keep him. So they don’t reach for their wallets so the man doesn’t feel uncomfortable when other people look at him like he can’t pay for dinner.”
Olga earns a good wage, and says she sometimes gets round that by giving her boyfriend money before the meal so that his sense of pride won’t be dented when it comes to paying.
Other young professional women report that some of their friends are beginning to change and don’t like the idea of never contributing financially. But many Russian women would not even consider dating a man who earned less money than them. “I would not feel safe,” says Oxana, a 28-year-old marketing manager, reflecting on the prospect of having a pauper for a boyfriend.
All of that raises the question of what exactly it is that wealthy Russian women do spend their money on.
“We have a very consumerist attitude so will still spend money on a Max Mara coat or Armani suit,” says Ms Kolchik. “Women spend most of their money on looking beautiful for their man; and in fact, for all men. Even if we’re happily married, it’s in our genes to compete for men and male attention.”
(click here to read the original article)
Now I don’t think this article fairly represents Russian Women the way I know them.
First off when it comes to dating Russian or FSU Women the KEY THING that any Man needs to realize is that you are being offered a UNIQUE opportunity to show your leadership in a budding relationship by TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for the date.
TAKING RESPONSIBILITY in any dating situation at the very MINIMUM means PAYING FOR THE BILL.
If you neglect to do this then you have FAILED a major test in the eyes of a Russian Lady.. And honestly you will probably not get another opportunity to correct yourself.
A Russian Woman will think of it in these terms..
“If he can’t TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for a simple cafe bill how can he possibly TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for me or our future children?”
Any Man who dates a Russian or FSU Lady should always consider paying the bill as a code of honor. And this is especially true even if your date “courteously offers” to contribute.
Keep this in mind even if you are out socializing with a lady friend with whom you don’t intend to have a romantic relationship with.
It’s still important to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY in this situation because all Women Talk..
And having a Russian Lady who is a good friend is the greatest way to gain a future endorsement from one Russian “sister” to another.
Think of it in these terms..
When a Russian Lady “allows” you to pay the bill..
She’s opening the door for you to take the next step and to come in on a deeper level.
So PLEASE DON’T think like some un-enlightened liberal or feminist indoctrinated weenie and blow it by having this door slam shut.
Unfortunately this article’s author comes off as one of the above simply because the article seems to imply that “going dutch” is the “fair and equal” thing to do given that many Russian Women (in Moscow) are starting to earn good salaries.
So now that we understand WHY this attitude is complete Hogwash let’s move on to the next subject..
The second problem I have with this article is that it makes all Russian Women sound like they are overtly materialistic by nature and constantly expect “extravagant” gifts from their suitors by default.
Again this is simply not the case for the vast majority of traditional Russian Girls I’ve known.
Small, timely, and THOUGHTFUL gifts are the best.
And they certainly DON’T need to be expensive..
But they should be MEANINGFUL.
So keep the above recommendations in mind..
Because it’s the least you can do for a Traditional Russian Woman that you are dating.
This is because you will find that over time (and if you are worthy) she’s going to give you everything that she’s got.
And the final line from this article is something that I couldn’t agree more with because it clearly emphasizes this point.
“(Russian) Women spend most of their money on looking beautiful for their man; and in fact, for all men. Even if we’re happily married, it’s in our genes to compete for men and male attention.”
July 3, 2008 at 10:26 pm
rw_man, excellent comment!
I agree with you on all points)))
But the problem here (probably) is that in Moscow women differ from their provincial sisters). They try to look more independent of men, more self-assured. Due to their high salaries they are able to buy designer clothes and accessories to attract men’s attention, they also prefer to pay for themselves in restaurants, nevertheless they expect expensive presents from their bfs/male friends. I have some friends in Moscow and they are the same as it’s described in the article. (well, I’m talking about really wealthy women).
as far as women in other cities/ villages are concerned, they tend to think that if a man is reluctant to pay bill, he’s good for nothing. man is supposed to be the main breadwinner in a family, so it’s important for him, from the outset, to show that he’s able to do such a small thing, that he cares about this woman). moreover, if a woman knows that a man is going to pay for dinner, she usually orders a little and as a rule not a very expensive dish.
as to presents, even one rose will be the best present for a woman if it’s given with love and admiration. the expression on your face matters, your words maybe. nothing else)))
July 3, 2008 at 11:38 pm
It’s too bad that Moscow becomes representative of all of Russia, it’s like saying that New York represents all of the United States. The girls that are native to Moscow seem almost like they are from a different country. A more western country…
I would agree with GL that paying for a date would be the absolute minimum that would be expected of you on a date. If that’s all I did for the outing though I wouldn’t expect to see her again. Don’t think by any means that “bare minimum” is acceptable
Think of yourself as a host and her as a VIP guest, anticipate her wants and needs and fulfill them before she even knows she wants them.
SiSD
July 4, 2008 at 8:56 am
Thanks again Yulia,
Yes I agree with you that this article’s author is making the big mistake of comparing the vast majority of Russian Women to the minority of them that live just in Moscow.
Like Sunnny said earlier.. It would be like trying to compare New York City to the rest of the US.
In general not a good idea.
GL
July 4, 2008 at 5:49 pm
After reading several articles, many links from this site, that were generally negative in their appraisal of the average urban woman in Russia and Eastern Europe, I am beginning to think that human nature is beginning to overrule culture. I hope that there are exceptions to the generalizations, because several generations of Westerners, both male and female, have proven that the lust for all things material is insatiable, and that one with a sense of entitlement makes poor company.
Thanks Yulia for your comments. I wish more females, especially those native to Russia and Eastern Europe, would write in. Gl, keep up the good work.
July 4, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Hi Sam..
You touch on a very philosophical point that’s I’ve bounced around for quite some time as well.
Materialism will always be a long term and seductive distraction or temptation to all people.
It ultimately boils down to pride/shame in ones identity and the need that they have/don’t have to supplement their sense of status with “things” or not.
Family, tradition and peers have a ton of influence on this.
But the bottom line I feel is this.
Regardless of where this trend is going in Russia or the FSU…
These women are going to become rapidly more priceless with time as all sorts of distractions encroach on traditional womanly values around the world.
So basically it all comes down to urging any man who is considering this option to not screw around too long with this.. and take what you’ve learned here and make a real plan of action with it.
In fact a long time ago I wrote a post about this that is still very relevant.
http://russianwomen.wordpress.com/2006/07/19/you-do-not-have-endless-time-to-do-this/
Thanks again, GL
July 5, 2008 at 1:37 am
I wonder how this materialism will affect the balance of men to available women to men in Russia and Moscow in particular. A woman is going to very quickly price herself out of the Russian market as no man is going to want a woman that makes more than him and no man is going to feel like supporting her career and lifestyle when they should be raising a family.
July 5, 2008 at 9:37 pm
I am russian and would like to say that this “tradition” of paying for everything is seems to me outdated but most of women like it, of course!
But I always pay first expense, say in a restaraunt but then I check her out if she will pay for something small in return, like an ice cream for example. If not I dump her, as simple as that. I don’t like feeling that I obliged to her from our first minutes.
July 6, 2008 at 2:17 pm
hi, Alex. you’re typical russian. Have a look at him, guys! our women have to marry such stingy men!
Hope now you realise why we prefer marrying foreign men. They do not behave like kids, complaining that cruel women don’t buy them sth in return.
“If not I dump her”. Do you dump women only because they don’t buy you an ice-cream?
Paying for your gf’s dinner (especially if you’re planning to become her husband) shows your serious intentions, your financial independence and your maturity.
You don’t owe us anything. If you feel sooo offended when she doesn’t pay, don’t ask her for dinner, as simple as that)
July 6, 2008 at 3:56 pm
I agree with GL, and I think that we may sometimes, perhaps subconsciously, take WW’s definitions of “testing” and “paying” and apply them to all RW. This is somewhat inevitable, because of the environment in which most of us grew up, but we should consciously focus on making the necessary cultural and character adjustments.
We all have expectations about how our ideal partner should think and act, and we try to determine if our prospective mate has these qualities. And the RW that we are discussing here do so in subtle and definitely non-malicious ways. The simplest way of doing this type of “testing” is to observe a man’s behavior in unambiguous situations.
Of course, this doesn’t work so well, for example, if according to Russian cultural expectations a = x, but to a WM a = z. One reason why this site is so valuable is that it gives men the information to adjust their behavior so that their actions, as understood by a RW, match their attitude and character.
One expectation is that a real man will take care of his woman’s physical and emotional needs. Since providing for her by hunting a dinosaur and then dumping it on her front porch has gone out of style, paying at a restaurant is a reasonable alternative. (And Dawn, I know about geological epochs, so no comments, please.)
The idea isn’t to try to impress her with money, which wouldn’t actually work with the type of women that we want, but to show your character through your actions, and also by having your spending match your means.
For example, if his woman is cold, a man of modest means who buys her the best coat that he can afford is showing his character. If he buys her a mink coat that he cannot afford, he is also showing his character, but not in a good way. But if a man who can afford to buy a hundred mink coats buys one for her, his behavior doesn’t reveal very much.
And a real woman will also want and need to take care of her man, but in a feminine way, and not necessarily by paying for something directly. This is the quality that is extremely evident in GL’s descriptions, even when he doesn’t emphasize it, and it is one reason why so many men are drawn toward these women.
It is the simple but consistent actions (with both men and women) that are the most important, because they are the ones that build a relationship, and more rapidly and solidly than one might imagine.
Many years ago, I took a woman to a cultural park, on a third or fourth date. It had a museum and a theater, but I was more interested in the footpaths around a small meadow and lake. I had casually mentioned that “we would find someplace to eat, later,” but she surprised me with a picnic lunch that had obviously taken some time to prepare. I had been appreciative, but I wish that I had understood the true significance of that simple act, at the time.
July 6, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Greetings John,
It was very rewarding to read your comments on this subject.
I also remember very well when I first arrived how I realized that I really had tons of learning to do in order to adjust to the completely different reality between Men and Women that exists here.
It WAS HARD.. It was AWKWARD.. And MANY MISTAKES were undoubtedly made.
But even through all of this I realized that I was going to be OK because I lived here and had TIME on my side to make the adjustments.
Most Men simply don’t have the luxury of time to understand this cultural process quickly enough.
And in the big scheme of things there are too many worthy Men and Women from different sides of the world wanting to find and build happiness with each other.
So this is a big reason as to why we have this blog.
I know in many cases I’m telling guys to take a huge leap of faith when I ask them to think and act differently.
This is certainly so since they have no starting frame of reference or direct experience in knowing what to do in any given situation especially if they’ve never been here before.
At the same time I’ve also seen guys who have been over many times and still want to do it THERE WAY when it’s painfully obvious that what they are really asking for is continued frustration and an opportunity to throw away more valuable time and money..
In either case I keep hoping for someone to flip on the light bulb so that they don’t need to repeat the same mistakes that many of us like myself have made along this growth curve.
One of the points that your brought up that I really appreciated was the fact that Russian Women will frequently test a man to see where he is on the scale of seriousness as a future husband.
Any Man who dreams about marrying a Russian Woman needs to keep this realization CONSTANTLY in his mind during the ENTIRE dating process.
And the key point that you brought up here John is that this testing is NOT done in a malicious way on their part.
Traditional Russian Women simply do this to PROTECT their future.
They are willing to invest their heart and soul into you and the children that you will both bring into this world.
But these ladies absolutely need to see how much of your own heart and soul you are willing to invest into this life long partnership FIRST.
This automatically requires the characteristics of a REAL Man who is willing to risk and take an initiative with them.
This may sound harsh but there is simply no rooms in this arena for half-assed attempts or timid little boys dipping their toe in the water to see if they want to go swimming or not.
The last point that you nailed is the considerate and “consistent little actions” that Men and women should do for each other to build up a real relationship.
This is truly a beautiful thing but the Materialistic expectations of the West have so robbed us of this treasure.
In the West Women seem to be taught to marry the guy who offers the biggest diamond ring. This is totally messed up and disconnected with the real romantic treasures in life.
And in 20/20 hindsight John.. I can totally understand why you now see that surprise picnic you had years ago as one of those treasures.
And I’m sure you’ll experience that again…
Thanks Again..
GL
July 7, 2008 at 3:01 pm
very intresting discussion.
I would say, A TRUE Russian woman will always remain the same, even if her material status changes. She will remain hopelessly romantic and caring, loving and attentive…
And the bills should be paid by men
I earn more that an average man in Austria, for example. But men pay when we go out with me(friends or colleagues - because I am happily married). And you know what? - I can see it on their faces that they are proud to pay my restaurant bill. really. Guess why?
July 8, 2008 at 3:21 am
GL,
You have created quite a global meeting place for the exchange of ideas, opinions, and general information.
John and Axinia, thanks for the education. Certainly I am not ashamed to say that I enjoy coming to this site regularly to see what I can learn, and enjoy.
July 8, 2008 at 3:23 am
P.S. Axinia, if you are ever in North Carolina I would be glad to buy you a meal, but your husband will have to cover the Armani suit. :))
July 8, 2008 at 6:39 am
Must be the first time I have to agree with the comments GL made.
there’s only one thing yet to mention, the one I call Sponzorusa attitude. Sometimes girls don’t want to pay for themselves. Just because they don’t want to.
I remember myself talking with my ex flatmate when she complained she wanted sushi that evening.
And I said great lets go get some sushi. But she looked at me as if I were mental and slowely unswered “I want sushi, but I don’t want to pay for them! I want somebody else to do it”
So in this case what Alex said sounds sense to me.
July 8, 2008 at 5:55 pm
@sam - thanks
I hope it will change in future.
by the way, my husband still earns less than me
I do look expencive, but this is an illusion. It is the dignity which makes a lady look good, not the cloths!
July 8, 2008 at 5:58 pm
A bit offtopic - GL, you wanted me to let you know if there is somethin relevant tot eh topic on my blog - there is soemthing!!
just posted “Russian Alternative for Valentine`s Day” - some good news from Russia
http://1000petals.wordpress.com/2008/06/13/russia-seven-wonders-moscow-voting/
and may be also this one: http://1000petals.wordpress.com/2008/06/13/russia-seven-wonders-moscow-voting/
thanks!
July 9, 2008 at 5:38 am
It is a very interesting article. Sadly for me, I cannot say I earn a lot of money to explore Russian women personalities. Nevertheless, it is for me a fact that Russian women are the most beautiful in the whole world. I do not know about being the best but I understand they have a very good sense of responsibility for the family issues. I would be honor to have the opportunity to date one and why not? To get marry with her and have kids and all of that. I think that the world is made according to people’s needs and that no matter how much you earn, responsibility in a person, whoever it is, speaks by itself about the kind of person you are dating. I have learned in my 36 years old life, that intentions can be easily mistaken when the use of material things are put on the table up front, but I agree that a man should take care of the bills in a date in most of the cases, not only as a matter of pride, but as a matter of good education and to show respect and admiration to that special one. I hope the world would be full of Russian women, with all the respect to other women in the world, but I treasure their beauty and also their existence.
July 9, 2008 at 12:21 pm
oh, I see i did not give you the link on the Russian Day of Love! -http://1000petals.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/russian-alternative-to-valentines-day/
July 9, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Hello Axinia,
Thanks for the link to the seven wonders. I had no idea Lake Baikal was so large. The architecture and construction quality of such landmarks as the palace-ensemble and St. Basil’s Cathedral is awesome as well. I personally admire the wide boulevards and parks common in your homeland, and look forward to seeing them in person.
You know, I think a woman’s dignity is a large part of her attractiveness, too. GL described seeing a woman doing janitorial work who, despite her clinging child and the task at hand, exuded charm and elegance. Take care.
July 10, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Hi Sam thanks for your appreciation of the site..
Kisha.. I’m well aware of the “let’s get something for nothing” attitude that exists with girls. And those types of girls exist everywhere in the world.. I’ve got better things to do with my time then to blog about them so I’ve decided to blog on the ladies that in my mind matter the most. Thanks again..
Hi Hiran..
You have a good attitude towards these ladies. They really are that rare and precious no doubt. I hope you someday get the chance to have a relationship with one..
GL
July 11, 2008 at 6:10 pm
to: Yulia ,July 6, 2008 at 2:17 pm
It is not about an ice cream or other things. sure you didn’t get it! coz many Russian girls care just about money. their next question after asking your name is “what do you do?” in reality means “how much do you earn”
Test to see if woman is willing to pay for something is just to make sure that she is really interested in relationship, not just by making herself pretty but also giving something in return. And it is not necessary meant money, prepared sandwiches for a picnic is also a good sign. Finally what women gives in return for all these efforts offered by men? Sex? Her presense in his life? Nobody could answer this question, coz there is nothing we get in return. Just a change of became a chosen one. Not a big deal as there are so many pretty girls around.
I’m not one of those who believe that man has to run around a woman to make her look at him and may be bless with a kiss.
And Russian women looking for foreigners just because there are so many young and beautiful rivals around so they in their 30-es hardly could get a chance to meet nice single man. as simple as that.
July 12, 2008 at 7:28 am
Alex, if it’s not a secret, whereabouts in Russia do you live?
Russian women care only about money? it’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard)love, strong realtionship, devoted husband, many kids - yes! not money!
what’s wrong with that question about your job? it’s asked to keep up the conversation, to know more about your interests, your life, to find out if you have anything in common.
I hope you realise that often in Russia a salary is out of all proportion to a post a person takes up. it depends on many factors.
hints that you see under each question is just your morbid imagination.
when I have read your post to the end, I understood that there’s not point in arguing with you. I ABSOLUTELY do not agree with you! but then again I’m not going to discuss it. It’s your life, act and think as you wish.
in any case, from my own experience, russian guys do not give a damn about their women. I can also begin to list the things you are supposed to do as a man, living in Russia. but it’s useless. to talk to you is just like to talk to a brick wall.
looking for foreigners “just because” this??? are you kidding? do you really think that’s the only reason? on what planet do you live? take any man that participates in the conversations on this blog and read through his comments, the way he writes them. and then compare them with yours. they are smart, clever and mature. men in Russia, even in their 40s are kids!
Alex, no offence! just my opinion.
one more thing: it’s not a problem to find a man in Russia. but what for? the vast majority of Russian women prefer western men. it’s a fact.
July 12, 2008 at 7:40 am
oh, forgot to write.
“what women gives in return for all these efforts offered by men? Sex? Her presense in his life? Nobody could answer this question, coz there is nothing we get in return.” are you truly mad or just pretend to be? what efforts by the way?
July 12, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Yulia, I don’t want to upset you, but you sound pretty much traumatized. Even if you experience with Russian men was far from wonderful, it can hardly justify this hatred towards them you spread here.
I have to diagree I don’t find comments of every single man here smart clever or mature. And where that universal truth that Russian women prefer foreign men comes from?
July 13, 2008 at 10:00 am
Kisha, I expressed MY opinion, if you don’t like it I’m sorry but I’m not going to change it. I FIND ‘comments of every single man here smart clever or mature’. except Alex’s. maybe because I’m biased against russian men. but you’re not the one to judge me. you have no idea about my experience. I can only say that for all my life (27 years) NONE of my female friends were happy with their russian bfs and husbands. 2 of my sisters were dumped as soon as they gave a birth to their kids and as for now their ex better halves do not give a damn about their children. one of my friends and her child were killed by her husband with an ax. etc, etc. Although all those men were highly educated people with very good jobs and were not drunkyards. I can continue forever.
Kisha, do you agree that russian women give nothing in return to their men? nothing? by any chance do you know what they give us? I agree that there are a few worthy men here. probably Alex is. but most of them are really good for nothing. on the other hand, some of my friends who met their husbands abroad (the USA, Europe, Japan even) are more than just happy.
If you are not satisfied with my comments, I would never write here. Thanks for your attention.
July 13, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Yulia I am truly sorry to hear that your friends and loved ones have gone through the experiences you talk about.
The events that you talk about are terrible to contemplate but I have no doubt that it’s important to tell these stories to help all of us gain some perspective on some of the challenges you ladies face.
I believe that your experience combined with your future plans with your soon to be husband can serve as a way to help many other ladies who are also in dire situations.
I’d encourage you to start-up your own russian language blog and promote additional awareness and discussion on the problems you talk about.
Thanks for filling us in on this..
GL
July 13, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Dear GL, thank you very much for the work you’re doing) I appreciate it deeply! Our women deserve personal happiness, hopefully men that read your blog will make them happy and make those who are suffering forget about their previous horrifying life with russian men. I didn’t know what ‘to be loved’ meant till I met my french fiance)
I’m really sorry if my comments about russian men make somebody angry, but I just wanted to share my experience with you. I suppose you should understand why russian women seek for foreign husbands, what incite us to do this. As I see now, some of your readers do not get the message(
My own blog here? Sounds great) but now I’m focusing on writing my Ph.D. thesis and frankly, I have no idea how to start such a blog( probably later, when I have time and you’ll be so kind to help me)
Yulia.
July 14, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Believe me Yulia, I quite understand why some Russian women are looking abroad for husbands. But getting over a really bad experience like that can take years. It took me that long to get over my ex-wife, and bitterness will sabotage any chance at future happiness if it’s not resolved first. Everyone who works to make it happen deserves happiness, but it won’t just happen on it’s own. It does not come from others, it is something we all have to find in ourselves and act upon.
Taras
July 15, 2008 at 8:59 am
Jeeez, Yulia I’m not judging you, I’m judging steriotyping and hatred (which is saying Russian men are good for nothing) I bet you wouldn’t like it if I said that all Russian women are whores, would you?
The problem here is that *women refuse to go dutch* attitude is what both group of women have (1st - nice&traditional and 2nd - spongers). So for a man it’s essential to carry out some small tests just to see what kind of girl he’s about to start going out with.
And yeah frankly I will never get that distorted message which reads “Russian men are BAD” you’re trying to pass on the people here. Majority of the country prove otherwise. They’re not really. And actually if Russian men are bad then so are Russian women.
“Kisha, do you agree that russian women give nothing in return to their men? nothing? by any chance do you know what they give us?” As I presume Alex was talking about the begging of relationship, when women give nothing but their time and attention, some don’t even give attention, so why waste time on them at all?
P.S. I’m sorry to hear all those terrible stories about your friends and family, unlucky.
July 15, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Taras, the trouble is, many friends of mine who divorced with their husbands that had abused them and their kids are still in love with them. and they are trying to bring them back, believing that their attitude towards them can be changed. unfortunately, it doesn’t work like that. in a couple of weeks it starts again. we’re taught to forgive people, to give them a second chance. but it turns out that they need a third one, a forth and so on. until sth terrible like a murder happens. psychologists and even the help of relatives and friends cannot help in such situations. that’s why I and some of my friends set our minds to marry a foreigner. As I mentioned before, nobody regrets that they took that decision.
Kisha, it’s not a stereotype, it’s an opinion of the vast majority of women I know. I’m not trying to pass anything on people here. Please, do be so kind, do not read between the lines. I repeat myself: I express my opinion. probably Alex means the beginning of a relationship, although I doubt it. BUT many men I met in Russia do think so even after the marriage. I don’t want to continue talking about this topic. It was nice to hear your opinion. Best regards.
July 15, 2008 at 7:03 pm
The key word here is “women I know”, thus this can hardly be taken as an objective and representative point of view. Thank you very much for sharing you personal opinion with me. I don’t have to read between the lines to see your frustration with Russian men, the language you use shows it all very well.
I on contrary would like to talk about it, but obviously not with you.
Cheerio
July 15, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Kisha you are smart enough to know that many thing stated in this manner including your own words can only be taken from “what you or your friends or family know”.
So the same criticism you level at Yulia can easily be applied to you too.
Now saying that..
I’d like to know if you are taking the opposite opinion from Yulia in stating that the majority of Russian Men that you know of treat their Women with respect, fidelity, sobriety or gratitude.
Kisha I have lots of Russian friends too..
Both male and female..
So I don’t consider myself blind to what’s really happening here.
Before I came to Russia I’ve read perhaps hundreds of profiles and post from Russian Ladies on dating sites who say many of the same things that Yulia is also saying.
Are they all wrong too?
Why are they even looking for a relationship on these sites in the first place?
Makes you wonder doesn’t it?
Let me know what you think.. Because we have an old saying that says where there’s smoke there’s fire..
And Lord knows I’ve seen more then my share of smoke here in Russia.
Are you saying you haven’t?
Thanks for your comments..
GL
July 16, 2008 at 11:03 am
Oh yes, but I haven’t said anything as bold as “the vast majority of Russian women prefer western men. it’s a fact.” Statistics on this anyone?
And actually I’ve never said anything which could pass of as my exact opinion (I’ll do it later), I just said NO to the ones of Yulia. Actually if you take any Russian diaspora you will see that even 3rd generation immigrants prefer to marry people of their own culture.(Russian Ortodox community) The same applies to people working abroad: best half of them attracted to their fellowcountrymen.
You know mail-order-bride is not a new thing in human history. There used to be picture brides for Korean and Japanise immigrants. And before FSU women there used to be latina and asian women. And all the sites proclaimed the same: those women are great wives and mothers and they have to strive against terrible life conditions and equally terrible husbands. Oooh yes!
To encourage people to obtain a foreign bride you have to degrade local competitors. But from my side I can’t say than all Russian men are as horrible as they are being portrayed. Every nation has its share of assholes. It’s no secret that there’re more women than men in Russia so thats the 1st reason for women to seek foreign men; at the same time chances for assholes to get married are higher.(women love assholes, don’t they?)
2nd reason and the main reason is the ecomomical situation in the country. People want more money (foreign=rich according to some not so intelligent people) and a steady life. Russia lacks stability, I don’t have to tell you about it, so women want to be on a safe side with their foreign men.(Somewhere in Ohio. With him in fron of the telly each evening. Oh bliss.)
3rd reason that some women think they’re something extraordinary and far too good for Russian guys and deserve more, because they are that beautiful.
Some just do it for fun, I have a friend who got registered in some japaniese bride-base because she was bored and the women who did the questionary was too insistent.
As for Russian men… yes I do believe they treat women with respect fidelity sobriety and all that. And they make caring fathers and husbands. I have nothing bad to say bout my male friends and family all of them are either happily married with kids or engaged. I see normal families around me, and whenever they have problems they work on it. In my opinion its not fair just to blame Russin men in all troubles they have with their women, Russian wives are not exactly angels either.
Anyway it all collide in economic+cultural reality of the country. Not many people were able to get over the collapse of the USSR so easily. Its my opinion.
July 17, 2008 at 1:08 am
Hello Yulia, and Hello Kisha,
Obviously, the two of you have had very different experiences in your homeland. I am sorry that there has been some friction, but, nevertheless, it’s interesting to read what two native Russians have to say about things. Judging from how vastly different lifestyles and life experiences can be here in my small community, I can only imagine what one might experience in a place like Moscow. Thanks for your input, and please keep commenting.
July 18, 2008 at 9:44 am
Of course it is easy to blame man around for not having a good husband!
But nobody blames them selfs for not making a good choice! I disagree that it is not visible if person is aggressive, egoist or simply idiot. Just to be with someone is not an excuse.
There are plenty good descent man around, may be not all earn much but with a good wife that encourages them they can do a lot more.
Dating “sexy” (in russia hooligans and other types of marginals were first choice for all girls) bandits, get beaten/ cheated and left with kids then date married man in their 40 ies who are better than the first option and when they say that they are not going to leave their family for her switch to dating websites and blame all russians is stupid.
July 18, 2008 at 9:58 am
It hardly would be a lie if I say that almost every russian woman at least once dated a married men with kids. Of course with aim that she is better than his wife and he will drop her and marry her.
They have no respect to other wifes, families, know that kids could be left with single mother but seeking respect from man around.
believe, some man are not blind…
July 18, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Kisha’s right, there is often enough blame to go around when marriage hit the rocks or worse yet, collapse. I have first hand experience in that department. I’ve met some very nice Russian men and women, and met others that I couldn’t wait to get away from, just like local folks I know. It’s wrong to blame all Russian men for the misdeeds some commit, just as it is wrong to blame all western women for the actions of my ex-wife. It’s entirely different when it comes to the big picture and the circumstance we’re in. It’s perfectly understandable to me why some Russian women are seeking non-Russian husbands just as there are American men who are seeking Russian women. American men do have a very hostile situation on their hands when it comes to women and marriage, the main reason being our own government and the corrupt and destructive laws it enacted pertaining to marriage, divorce and other family related matters. In short, the state here is usurping the roles parents have been carrying out for millennia worldwide, with disastrous results for individuals and society as a whole.
Taras
Taras
July 21, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Cheers Taras. It’s always easier to find a scapegoat and blame it all on it, but let’s not fall for this.
August 16, 2008 at 1:31 am
My beloved niece in Mexico City told me, maybe ten years ago, she was never again going to date a Mexican man, because they treat women very poorly. She agrees North American men make better mates, also some Europeans.
I agree. Of course that makes it better here for men, but I can be a very benevolent dictator, hee, hee.