Is this what American Women are turning into?

March 11, 2008

Is this what American Women are turning into?

Posted by rw_man under American Girls, American Men, Background, Bad Habits, Beauty & Sexiness, Culture & Beliefs, Feminism, General, Identity, International Men, Rants & Raw Deals, Real Man, Russian Women
[68] Comments

Now normally I try to keep things on a tame level when I feel like I need to hand out a healthy dose of criticism towards American Women.

But when I received a viewer comment yesterday about Western Women it just really clicked and the reality of it refused to lie still.

Now if you remember in our previous post “NEWS FLASH! Beautiful Russian Girls in the Mainstream Press” I took offense with Anne Applebaum’s contention that most Russian Women only became beautiful when they acquired enough money and free access to fashionable products to transform themselves from

“Unglamorous Assembly Line Workers”…

into the

“extraordinarily, unbelievably, stunningly, and gorgeous”…

…Russian women that she saw from the mid 90’s on.

One of our readers graciously wrote in the following comment about this state of affairs from his vantage point.

Women in the West are NEVER going to want to see these (Russian) women coming their way.

They will marginalize them any way they can. If it weren’t for the Sharapova’s a Western man might believe them, but you can’t deny the picture you posted (of her beauty) and noted the (lack of) clothing and make up.

Western women WANT to make this about materialism, it is the only value they appreciate.

They WANT to believe that clothing and make up can cover the distance between what they have become and the obvious stunning beauty that is available in the FSU.

I am around single women’s groups a lot, and they detonate if the subject of women from anywhere comes up.

-Randall

Now when I read this it was easy to be reminded of the American Women back in my own life who had demonstrated these unfortunate characteristics all too well.

I was even thinking about sharing some personal examples of this when I realized that there was a much more simpler and vivid example I could use that everyone should instantly recognize and still drive home the point.

An example of a Woman that we all know who also possessed a toxic brew of VANITY and ENVY directed towards other women.

So does anyone know who this lady is?

Now even as I laugh putting up these images and even-though I know this example may seem silly..

It still seems like this is increasingly becoming the accepted behavioral norm as far as American Women are concerned.

But is it really true that their identities are becoming more like this?

Well by the very virtue of asking this question I guess we can say that there will always be a few grains of truth in all things..

But in this particular case the volume of truth about this unfortunate transformation for American Women would probably be enough to fill a few gigantic grain elevators down on the farm..

In any case the next time you hear some Western Woman openly ragging on Russian or FSU Women..

Just try to keep the above pictures in mind.

Poison apple anyone?

68 Responses to “Is this what American Women are turning into?”

Taras Says:

March 11, 2008 at 11:54 pm
How can I forget, that’s the evil witch out of the story Snow White, who was her exact anti-thesis in every respect. American women all too often have become peddlers of poison apples through their vanity and envy of others. Snow White isn’t about looks, it’s about character and how what we carry on the inside manifests itself on the outside. To me this is a tragedy that has no end in sight, because I see up close the misery it causes.

Taras

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DLS Says:

March 12, 2008 at 3:15 am
“Unglamorous Assembly Line Workers”… ?

Hmm, based on my two trips to Moscow, I’ll take unglamorous assembly line workers over fat, disfigured (tattoos, body piercings) American females any day.

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Jacque LeMoose Says:

March 12, 2008 at 10:24 am
Agree with you as usual RW-Man. Even at my work I must suppress my interests from male AND female alike from their brand of ridicule to justify the feminisation of our society here.
They have no knowledge or experience of what they speak of, but they are so fast to lash out at these NATURALLY beautiful women. No amount of makeup can cover their deceit or conceit.

🙂

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rw_man Says:

March 12, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Hi Jacque LeMoose..

Sorry to hear your office doesn’t sound like a very fun work environment. I hope you find a way to express yourself freely and in a clever way to take your stand.

Good luck man..

GL

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Randall Says:

March 13, 2008 at 1:30 am
GL,

I think you said it best when you said that you always feel like American Women are trying to sell you a product when talking. That is exactly right, and it is because that product can’t sell itself. They want to convince you to buy into their mindset. That someone with horrible past, STDs, multiple marriages, too old to compete, etc is exactly what you SHOULD want. And why not? With a steady diet of Oprah, Martha, Ellen, Cosmo, every movie they see, every tv show they see, everything they say to their friends – they do believe it. When a man doesn’t buy into it, it makes them very angry. The idea of woman that doesn’t buy into it – and more horrible – offer a better product, infuriates them. I think IMBRA says it all.

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Taras Says:

March 13, 2008 at 2:13 am
That’s why I and many other men have turned our back upon American women Randall. IMBRA is all about killing off the competition, and it’s the kind of law I would expect to see in Communist China. Feminists can try and try to make me accept American women, but they will never succeed. For one thing, American women hardly talk to me anyway, and when they do, I open the waveguide that runs from one ear to the other, LOL.

Taras

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1. Sarah Says:
  
  December 2, 2009 at 3:12 am
  Hello I am American and I can agree that alot of women here are straight up bitches but not all of them. I am a nice girl and I dunno why any girl here wouldn’t talk to you. I think Russian men are very sweet:)In fact I prefer Russian men over any country.
  
  Reply
  1. Richard Says:
    
    December 2, 2009 at 6:49 am
    Hi Sarah,
    Hopefully the impression most guys on this site leave is not that all NA women are self centered, self destructive, anti-male and basically bitches. While it may seem to many of us that probably the vast majority of NA women are like that, we generally admit that there are still some around who appreciate their femininity and the joys of being a woman.
    Do you mind adding your approximate age and general location as a sort of point of reference for me? It is always interesting to note the possible life experience and environmental factors when thinking about someone’s comments.
    Have you met a lot of Russian men in social situations or as potential dates?
    Most young women here in NA tend to tell me that they strongly prefer local guys but unfortunately I think from hearing them talk about their experiences, they quite often seem to be fishing in the shallow end of the pond.
    Looking forward to more of your thoughts.
  2. Taras Says:
    
    December 6, 2009 at 10:01 pm
    In the Southern U.S., Slavs like me might as well be aliens from outer space. And I found trying to even approach women when I was younger was about as fun as grabbing a cornered porcupine. Yes, I agree with you not all American women are that way, I know this because my mother and sister are most definitely not like that. Nor are a few other American women I’ve known for years, decades even. But most I encounter give off non-verbal cues that they don’t want me approaching or speaking to them. Others find my Slavic appearance, the fact I am actually an educated man and that I have to them a strange name is a bridge too far. I was ridiculed mercilessly as a child and girls were no less mean to me during my adolescent years. Where the bitchiness you see comes from is these women’s childhoods. Because of this and some other traumatic experiences I went through, I admittedly am not warm and fuzzy any more towards the opposite sex, and I am not a warm person to begin with. I’ve also been described as intense, which is true because I have frozen people in their tracks with a look. That is why at the age of 43, I’m a gray ghost, literally and wish to remain that way. I keep to myself and a small circle of friends and don’t bother with anyone else. Nice ladies such as yourself are a minority now, a small one at that. You would also agree nice ladies are not going to be found in the usual places where most people go looking for members of the opposite sex. You sure won’t meet a nice man in a club, that you can be sure of. Even in churches, good luck on that one. Feminism and this degenerating culture has poisoned and turned generations of men and women against each other. Most women these days don’t give a guy like me a second look, or if they do they behave as though I’m the enemy and scurry away, just because I’m a man. I’ve thrown in the towel, one bad marriage and other bad experiences with women make it very difficult for me to trust any woman now. That is why I am to say the least reticent when it comes to approaching them. Not that I don’t bear a measure of blame too for that mind you. That is why young women need to listen to older men such as their fathers, because when they poison their own well, it will come back to haunt them later.
    
    Taras
rw_man Says:

March 13, 2008 at 3:26 am
Hi Randall,

Pretty soon we might see Western Women using Powerpoint presentations to market themselves with eh?

Well thank god for globalization and the internet for us Men to choose otherwise.

BTW Love your insights Randall.. very meaningful and educational stuff… so keep it rolling..

GL

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rw_man Says:

March 13, 2008 at 3:28 am
Taras you are totally right about comparing IMBRA legislation to what happens in any oppressive Communist or even Post Communist country.

However IMBRA is in many ways much worse because men in those countries have every right in the world to reach out overseas to say hello without the government getting involved.

GL

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Jacque LeMoose Says:

March 13, 2008 at 10:28 am
Thank you RW. And yes, I manage to do okay in my office. Little do they know the experience of real love and friendship. It cannot be explained, but must be experienced. And in spite of all, I love my work.

😉

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SunnyInSanDiego Says:

March 17, 2008 at 12:40 am
This is my first post here and I’d also like to thank RW for this site. It’s changed my perception of how I look at women here in the US so many ways. I hail from San Diego and most of the women can’t even come close to comparing with these lovely women. Seeing beautiful women put some effort into their looks just for everyday activities was such a spelndid thing to see. It seems like the more attractive a women gets around here, the less she’s willing to put into her appearance. I guess they feel that since they are so far above the status quo they no longer need to put any effort into looking that much better for themselves or their men, and you’ve posted numerous times about how they feel they should be treated for being a cut above the rest.

I was walking around the wild animal park here today with my newly focused eyes and was was shocked at how many women were bigger/wider/heavier than their man, 30-40% is where I would put it. These were normal sized guys too, with a look of shame and submission that I had never noticed either…

I used to think that I would be able to find the “diamond in the rough” of american women, but why bother when there is a sea of diamonds over in the FSU.

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Kiley Says:

March 17, 2008 at 3:34 am
I’m so happy to have found your site! Everything is so informative and…well, TRUE!
I’m an american girl. Though I wouldn’t say I’m your “average” american girl. Many of the things I see nowadays make me sick. From the way most women disreguard others, to the way they eat, dress, walk, their general attitude, etc.
The way american women are now make me feel extremely happy for feeling so left out and different from everyone else.
I have read many articles about many different people from all over the world. Russian women fascinate me the most, by far!
I think we all, american girls, can learn an infinite amount from Russian women.
Not to mention their beauty is overwhelming!!!

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rw_man Says:

March 17, 2008 at 4:43 am
Hi SunnyinSanDiego.

Welcome aboard..

Thanks for filling us in on the situation you see in San Diego.

I knew the numbers were pretty bad concerning obese women but I had no idea it was at the level you observed.

If you appreciate and like women who put effort into the way they look then you are going to LOVE this place.

I’m constantly astonished and the energy, attitude and meticulous detail that these women put into looking “normal” by their standards..

I’m sure you will be shocked in the best possible way when you hopefully someday make it over.

In anycase thanks again for taking the time to read through this blog. Please contribute with more observations or insights as you see them..

Cheers.. GL

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rw_man Says:

March 17, 2008 at 4:50 am
Hello Kiley,

I love it when courageous American ladies like yourself join us.

I know it must take serious guts to carry yourself the way you do in the environment that you live in.

And you have my deepest respect for that.

You have mentioned something very true about Russian Women that I’ve stated before.

There is A LOT we can learn from them..

I’ve been here for several years and often times I still feel like a newcomer who still notices new things I have never seen or witnessed before.

So because of that…

My time out here still feels like a great adventure made even greater by the fact that there are Men and Women like you who wish to learn more.

I’m happy that you’ve found us and I hope that what you learn from this site will inspire you even more and maybe other American Women will start to open their hearts and minds to what is happening.

Thanks Again and Cheers!

GL

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SunnyInSanDiego Says:

March 18, 2008 at 1:32 am
Thanks for the response RW,

You have pointed out on more than one occasion what I feel is one of the biggest things that AW are missing completely, and that is any sense of gratitude whatsoever. In it’s place selfishness, please me now attitude has taken over. AW don’t want or ask you to do something for them, they demand it.
I had never noticed the look of complacency and acceptance that most AM men have when they are with these AW until I started reading this site and opening up my eyes. They wear the shame and regret of their relationship all over their face and body language. Just a blank stare ahead hoping to not rock the boat, trying to stay out of the way in order to keep their American Princess happy. They would leave but they think that they won’t be able to do any better or find anyone that is any better than they have now.
I get asked quite a bit how a 30 year old guy with a degree and a steady job can’t find a women to be with. I rather enjoy now saying that I simply can’t find a real woman here that I would want to go out with here in the US.

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Randall Says:

March 18, 2008 at 6:27 am
SunnyInSanDiego,

I think you are right on the money, men don’t know anymore. They don’t know, and they refuse to listen. I am over a decade older than you, and I have been getting the line about why I am not married a long time. People now just assume my life is one big party and women are a disposable part of that. I don’t tell them the truth because it would offend them, and I just don’t care. They have made their decisions, I have made mine. I really want to take the women in my life more seriously, but they have made decisions to take that option away from me. These women are not marriage material, never will be. Someone may marry them, but I can’t imagine how truly terrible their life will be under the best circumstances.

Recently, I was sitting at a table in the entrance of a bar. I watched as couples came in. Out of 14 couples that walked in that day, 11 of the women were larger (that is to say fatter) than the men. That is not a trend, that is a majority.

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Max Says:

March 24, 2008 at 4:53 am
I just got back from Kharkov and I saw a lot of these “factory workers” walking down the streets. Good thing I was in a taxi and not the one driving. I am sure that I would not have made it a block or two before rear-ending someone. I could not go more than every other block without going “damn!” My neck was sore by the time I got to my apartment.

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rw_man Says:

March 25, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Sunny,

You brought up a point here that in my mind is the hidden tragedy of our generation.

So many men have been completely pacified by constant societal and feminist brainwashing and especially by the relationships they are in.

There is much truth in what you say when you accurately observe that many of these men “don’t want to rock the boat” with their wives or girlfriends because they totally fear that this is the last shot they will get to be with a woman.. any woman..

What a HORRIBLE way to live..

And unfortunately I think the majority of Men out there believe this.

I’ve been there done that.. and I can tell you it ain’t no fun.

Well guys.. they always say that “Freedom isn’t Free”.

We live in an age of a different type of Tyranny..

And it’s our job to fight it and the best way we can do that is to build up a stable and loving family.

And how do we do that?

Well you guys already know the answer to that..

GL

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SunnyInSanDiego Says:

March 27, 2008 at 4:20 am
Why is it that American Women, no matter how attractive they are, are never happy with their bodies? I work with an attractive AW who wants more than anything to get a boob job. She loves to bring up this topic whenever money is spoken about in any way i.e. “that lunch money could be going toward my boobs.” She is one of the most attractive women at my company yet she’s not happy with herself and it shows. I can’t imagine what is going on in the heads of the overweight ones. It’s no wonder that cosmetic surgery is a multi-billion dollar industry in the US.

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Dawn Says:

March 27, 2008 at 9:17 am
Sadly this is almost a universal female condition, Sunny!

I agree with your point entirely. It is really sad how many of my friends are unhappy with their bodies despite being very beautiful.

Lots of the posts on this site also mention Russian women’s protests and disbelief that anyone would find them beautiful.

It seems we women can be harsher judges of ourselves (and, tragically, often of each other) than men ever are.

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American Man Says:

July 7, 2008 at 12:25 am
I am currently very happily married for over 4 years to a wonderful, honest, intellectual, highly-educated, and, hopefully without sounding too smug, beautiful Russian woman. We have a great life with our 2 year old son.

Needless to say, I laugh quietly to myself when I hear and read about the ridiculous pervasive stereotypes of Russian woman scammers that are mainly perpetrated by jealous intimidated western European/ American women. This occurs especially after I think about the 11 years in hell I spent married to a mean-spirited, materialistic American woman who cheated on me numeorus times while I worked my arse off and then unsuccessfully tried to clean me out financially.

I think that the American media-driven mass-consumer culture combined with American/ western European feminism’s absolute at-any-cost sense of entitlement has resulted in a near toxic combination in American / Western European women. Call it the “Sex and the City” syndrome. Unfortunately, you will probably see the “Sex and the City” syndrome spread to to the former Soviet Union within another generation. But for now, based upon my personal experience, there is no comparison between most western European/ American and Russian women.

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Taras Says:

July 7, 2008 at 11:19 pm
So many men have been completely pacified by constant societal and feminist brainwashing and especially by the relationships they are in.

There is much truth in what you say when you accurately observe that many of these men “don’t want to rock the boat” with their wives or girlfriends because they totally fear that this is the last shot they will get to be with a woman.. any woman..

What a HORRIBLE way to live..

And unfortunately I think the majority of Men out there believe this.

I’ve been there done that.. and I can tell you it ain’t no fun.

Well RW_Man, I have been there too. But after divorcing my now deservedly ex-wife, I no longer care what happens if I made waves. I made waves just to make some of these harpies growl like a junkyard dog, and showing that a man can be free of these horrible wenches to other men is priceless. When a man no longer worries about what a bunch of ingrate western women think of him, he’s no only free, he is exercising power over his destiny God has given all of us to discover and act upon.

Taras

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Valeria Says:

July 21, 2008 at 6:40 am
” I think that the American media-driven mass-consumer culture combined with American/ western European feminism’s absolute at-any-cost sense of entitlement has resulted in a near toxic combination in American / Western European women. Call it the “Sex and the City” syndrome. Unfortunately, you will probably see the “Sex and the City” syndrome spread to to the former Soviet Union within another generation. But for now, based upon my personal experience, there is no comparison between most western European/ American and Russian women. ”

Not necessarily American Man … Christianity ( traditional religion ) is growing fast in some parts of Russia , Central and South America , Asia , Eastern Europe and Africa … but it’s not religion as known in the USA or in the West ( yes just as there are differences between Western and Non Western women so are there differences between American and European Christians against Non Western Christians … I should know because I’m a Non Western Christian and I have seen the state of Christianity in the West )

Anyways this website is somewhat true … my brother is 25 and is studying in Houston , TX and even though he has spent only a year and a few months now ( we lived mostly in Russia , Portugal , Singapore and in Angola , West Africa ) he has complained that the women here ( in the USA , Canada and Western Europe ) are dramatically different from those back home and that they are greedy , feminist and have this attitude … I thought that he was exagerating but what he says has truth to it … he only seems to be attracted to Latinas straight from Central and South America

Anyways my mother is Russian and my father is African and I came here out of curiosity … I think that it’s a beautiful website … my mother used to work as an oil engineer ( my father is an oil engineer too and makes a lot of money ( : ) and after my older brother was born she stopped … I remenber her taking care of me and my family as a child … nurturing us … potty … cleaning the house … cooking … sweying … playing … I’m only 15 and a teenager and I’m following Economy ( for a while and maybe after marriage I will stop ) but it’s because of my mother and the Bible that I have this desire to be a great mother , feminine and a wonderful housewive … she’s truly a great woman and thought I’m irritated with her sometimes ( what teenager girl isn’t ? ) she is inspiring

http://www.o-bible.com/cgibin/ob.cgi?version=kjv&book=eph&chapter=5
http://www.o-bible.com/cgibin/ob.cgi?version=kjv&book=prv&chapter=31

Have a nice day you all

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doamna Says:

July 21, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Hello Valeria,
If you don’t mind, can you elaborate on the difference between western Christianity and the Christianity growing in the East? My husband and I have been looking for a Christian community for all five years of our marriage and have not yet found anything like the Christian community we have in mind…
Just curious…
Thanks, and for all of us, welcome!
Doamna

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Valeria Says:

July 21, 2008 at 8:54 pm
I can’t do much but this historian ( Philip Jenkins ) can

There are three books … one focuses on Global Christianity , the other more narrowly and the other touches European Christianity

It really depends where you are going or looking … is it in South America ? Asia ? Africa ? Where ? The thing is that thought we are great in number in general we usually gather or walk in small communities where I come from ( everybody is friendly but each is going seperately yet unified … if that even makes sense ) … it’s simultaneaosly grouply ( pastor , etc ) yet individualistic … it’s not so post modern influenced … the best explaination is comes from Philip Jenkins … read his book

If you don’t mind I want you to read these as well

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doamna Says:

July 22, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Thanks, Valeria.
I’ve just now requested most of those titles at my library. Some of them look rather interesting, although I must say red flags go up when I see titles or subtitles touting “new” forms within a religion, or the coming of “new” eras. The story of the last 50 years of our civilization has not told me anything to endear to me what humanity calls new or modern.

I was mostly wondering about developments in East-European protestant groups, since I’m not there to find out for myself. One of my cousins travels every now and then to Kazakhstan or the Ukraine to help fund orphanages there, but he mainly travels in closed religious circles while there.
Anyway, thanks for your feedback!
Doamna

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Richard Says:

August 11, 2008 at 6:05 am
Valeria,
I am truly sorry that I had not seen your notes before. You have a wonderful perspective and the freshness of youth to boot. I commend you on your commitment spiritually and also your open honesty about life through your own eyes. It is totally uplifting for me to hear young people speaking of family values and a positive view of their own future.
As far as religious reading goes, I am a fan of Jenkins’ books but have not read them all. I do think that some of his views are off center for most of us and the bulk of his theory is based on enormous sets of happenings falling exactly in line. While not a prophet by any means he does have a gift for the “what if” sort of thinking.
I might suggest some reading for you and also for Doamna that is more Christ focused and less theological. Try to get “We Believe” by Michael Horton, “As A Man Thinketh” by James Allen or “How To Study The Bible For Yourself” by Tim LaHaye. That last author is the one who co-wrote the “Left Behind” series with Philip Jenkins.
Christian beliefs are very personal and we all must find our own path so if you ‘begin at the beginning’ as my mother used to say, it will always be a safer trip. I try to avoid ‘modern’ views and ‘new world’ perspectives in my spiritual journey so it is something I often recommend to others. Getting into the Bible is always the best starting point and also the best guideline for measuring any other reading or socializing you do.

Doamna,
First I agree with you on the thoughts about “new” or “modern” in regards to Christianity and religion. So far it is proving to be somewhat like other items discussed here in that it represents ways and ideals which do not click with traditional models. While much of the new age rhetoric surrounding the Christian experience may have a solid base, it is still being ‘stretched to fit’ the new ways of thinking.
As for the Christian movement in the FSU and other parts of Europe right now I can only share what has been coming to me from the mission workers that I know over there. Basically what your cousin is doing seems to be the normal practice in most regions. Staying with and traveling with other like minded people in fairly close knit groups is advisable for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there are still many people there who do not welcome the Christian movement. A particular woman I know who is currently in Bulgaria says that nearly all of her travel is within their church circle even when going to local destinations, and of course always for long distances.
I think some of the best resources we can have are the experiences of missionaries in the field and almost any church that you are already familiar with should have contact with some of those workers abroad.
If you are also seeking more information for your personal Christian journey, the same books I mentioned to Valeria and maybe also “The Journey of Desire” by John Eldredge. One of the great benefits of the past 20 years is an abundance of writing about our spiritual lives. Even though caution is highly advised because a lot of it may be way off the mark, by communicating regularly with others of the same mindset it is easy to quickly and safely weed out the flax from the grain.

Warm thoughts and blessings to all,
Richard

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doamna Says:

August 11, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Thank you, Richard – I’ll be sure to check them out. However, it’s a difficult substitute of books over real interaction with like-minded people. Thinking back to a comment you made on a previous thread about fearing for your daughter’s future – my fears for any future children of mine would definitely and predominantly include “who in the WORLD will they be able to be friends with, let alone marry?!
Anyway, I do enjoy your comments.
Doamna

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Richard Says:

August 11, 2008 at 9:38 pm
doamna,
Can I ask where you live now and what churches you have been trying out? There are many contacts here in the Seattle/Vancouver area and maybe they could come up with valid suggestions for you in regards to finding positive association.
As for my 8 year old daughter, yes there is some fear that the current path in NA is heading towards self destruction at break neck speed. However, as a believer I must not only trust that our place in this performance is of value to others but also that I will make wise decisions regarding the people, places and situations I expose my little girl to.
Her mother is a consistent abuser of drugs and alcohol and has bouts of sever depression, yet I allow 2 visits per week, 2 and 1/2 hours each and without any outside supervision but only on weekday afternoons.
It has been stressful at times but I believe that children need to know what causes these modern marriages to end and still have access to the missing parent if possible. My daughter has been told (always at her level) what depression and addictions are and how easily people can succumb to such things. She has seen the effect it has on families and she is very open to sharing the story in church or school prayer circles. She knows that we don’t have to stop loving someone because of a serious illness, especially mental illness, but she also understands that the sick person can not always be trusted at their word or in critical situations. It saddens me that little kids need to learn such deep life lessons so early these days but at the same time I think it may offer them greater defense against falling into the same traps.
As for her view on NA media and its portrayal of husbands and fathers as mindless, spineless ninnies, one of her comments was, “Daddy, why do they always make the men sound so dumb?” I explained to her that the people in charge of that sort of thing say that they are just trying to be funny, but actually they believe men deserve to be broken down to make things more equal. Her response was, “How can that make things equal?” Isn’t it funny that an 8 year old girl “gets it” but most NA adults don’t?
My daughter has always been in private Christian schools and barring any unforeseen disasters, she always will be. But ultimately children will all grow up to be who they are. Our only hope is that we plant enough good seeds that they will outperform the weeds strewn about by the world.
Thank you for your kind thoughts.

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doamna Says:

August 12, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Sadly, the place we do NOT live, much to our chagrin, is Seattle/Vancouver. My favorite place I’ve visited in NA so far.
We’ve been to several churches in our area, of different denominations, but they all had philosophical/doctrinal/sociopolitical problems it would take too much space to mention, in addition to the fact that people don’t seem interested in spending time with anyone outside their social circle.
I agree that it’s sad that children have to learn about all these dangers so soon, but knowledge carries its own protection and comfort. It sounds like she’s doing very well…

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Manoah Says:

August 13, 2008 at 11:19 am
A most excellent article and an introduction to “Wing to Wing and Oar to Oar” as it relates to modern social malaise in NA and how the situation is better in Russia.

Original article is at:
“http://www.boundless.org/2000/departments/beyond_buddies/a0000372.html”

by Sean McMeekin

(Review of Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar. Readings on Courting and Marrying. Edited by Amy A. Kass & Leon R. Kass. University of Notre Dame Press, 2000.)

I’ll just go ahead and say it: I have never understood women. Not the perfectly coiffed grade school queens who were always polite enough in class, but teased me mercilessly at social events for being too preppy (for a guy, that is). Not Anna or Shannon, the two cute-but-dumb girls from the junior high era who both took me on as a “boyfriend” because they liked my sartorial style — until they realized my attitude didn’t fit my look and so summarily dumped me because I wasn’t as “cool” as they had initially thought. (What is it about clothes, anyway?)

Smart girls weren’t much easier to figure out. Usually — and I’m not kidding, this happened three times in high school — it would go like this. A passionate, dreamy, ordinarily assertive poet or actress type would develop an intense crush on me and yet wouldn’t bother even to so much as speak to me, not once — until months, sometimes years later, by which time she was completely over me, had a regular boyfriend, and I had a crush on her.

College relationships? Two basic models seemed to present themselves: the drunken libertinism of the fraternities and my actor friends, or that bland-sounding off-campus cohabitation more mature acquaintances opted for (“we’ve been together since sophomore year.”) Let’s just say I had little interest in either model.

Until very recently, I was always inclined to think there was something innately wrong with my psyche, as if my mating genes had somehow been misshapen in my mother’s womb. Was I a “hopeless romantic,” as I would often defensively claim to some curious female inquisitor, by way of explaining my chronic inability to find a steady girlfriend? Or simply clueless in affairs of the heart?

After picking up Amy and Leon Kass’ Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar, though — and this is the most wonderful thing about the book — the thought has occurred to me that perhaps my experience of lifelong romantic confusion and frustrated longing has not been so strange after all. Strange in certain circles of contemporary American life, to be sure, where (in the Kasses’ unforgiving description) carefree and seemingly effortless “serial monogamy” (or “rotating polygamy”) is the norm, and expectations for love and marriage are low. But in the general run of human experience, the delicate courtship dance between men and women always been fraught with ignorance, uncertainty, and razor-sharp emotional peril.

The difference today, the Kasses argue, is that an explosive cultural nexus of unprecedented prosperity available to both men and women, easy geographic mobility and consequently loosened family ties, contraception and abortion-on-demand, along with a “general erosion of shame and awe regarding sexual matters,” has de-stigmatized all of the old problems relating to sex and deadened our once-mystical appreciation of its social importance. Why worry about the imperatives of modesty (from the woman’s angle) or the consequences of casual sexual conquests (from the man’s) if there are no stigmas attached to any of the old sins?

Some of us, though, are still old-fashioned (or, in my case, merely confused) enough to devote lengthy thought to such matters. And the Kasses, frankly and unapologetically, have set themselves the task of helping us out, by assembling an astonishingly rich array of essays, novel excerpts, and poems which seriously explore the problems presented by love and the mysteries of married life.

Collectively, the effect of the readings can be stunning. Beth Bailey’s historical essay “From Front Porch to Back Seat” brings to life the lost world of our grandparents, where hopeful young gentleman callers would meet virtually a girl’s entire extended family before she might so much as entertain the thought of kissing him — a world that already seemed hopelessly quaint to our parents, whose own courtship system of on-the-town “dating” seems ever quainter to us with every passing year. What would our grandparents make of the casual couplings of the current college scene, so acerbically described by Allan Bloom here as the “passionless” sex of “souls without longing”?

Nowhere is the scale of our current impoverishment more evident than in the debasement of language. Where the ancient Greeks had, as the Kasses point out, close to a dozen words to describe varieties of love and friendship between men and women, we are stuck with a soul-deadening phrase like “relationship.” So unerotic has sex become that we describe it with metaphors suggestive of an industrial process (“hooking up”), a law office (“my partner”), or of corporate drones drudging along in their cubicles (my own personal favorite, “getting busy.”) Worse still is the sterile jargon of pop psychiatry and sex-ed, which, as the Kasses complain, reduces the transcendent longings of eros to a banal, and incredibly boring, “story about pleasure and safety.”

How, exactly, did we reach this depressing state of affairs? Clearly our dilemma is rooted in the very freedoms that have allowed us to become so prosperous, to unshackle ourselves from economic want and oppressive social obligations. As Tocqueville once observed on the American frontier, “no men are less dreamers than the citizens of democracy.” So busy are we all in striving to further our careers and “improve” our myriad institutions that the imaginative leap required of romance seems only an unwelcome distraction. Feminism, one thinks after re-reading Tocqueville in the context of this collection, is only the latest chapter in the development of American individualism, which allows us to prosper and (in the current jargon) “fulfill” ourselves at the price of estrangement from our families and community.

But in another sense, feminism has been decisive, the final blow to the romantic ideal. Love and marriage, the assembled essays in this volume make abundantly clear, have always required an unequal sacrifice, in the sense that a man has more both to give and to lose. As sexual beings, men are not naturally inclined to monogamy as are women; nor is there any conceivable economic advantage for a man who commits to support a woman and the children he has with her. Marriage civilizes a man precisely by demanding such renunciations of ego, asking him to forfeit independence and carnal freedom and assume countless social burdens in exchange for a woman’s consent to love him and no other.

Avowedly “independent” feminists, by contrast, seem to expect very little from men, and by all appearances, that’s what men are giving them. Why court (or “woo”) and wait patiently for sex, if women demand sexual pleasure as a right? Why work and save to provide for the mother of your children, if she refuses to let you pay for anything? Why forego indulgent male pastimes like drinking, gambling, and brawling for the more civilized pursuits of mixed company, if all you expect out of female conversation is to be demonized and blamed for women’s problems? Why bother with flowers, compliments, opening doors and so on, if by doing such things you will be snickered at or labeled a “chauvinist” or “reactionary”? If men increasingly prefer the easy pleasures of looking at gadgets and babes in Maxim to the hard work of romance, you can hardly blame them. As Edmund Burke once said of the French Revolutionaries, our feminists “have been punished by their success.”

I have been brooding over the various consequences of the war on chivalry ever since I began spending time in Russia, a country where feminism has never existed. There isn’t even a word for feminism in Russian, nor even, properly speaking, a word for political “equality” (ravnopravie, literally “equality of rights” is close, but this is not a phrase you’ll ever hear anyone using, let alone getting excited about). If you try to explain feminism to Russians, and believe me I’ve tried, it comes out sounding like “lack of difference” between men and women, which sounds patently absurd to them. Why, an utterly baffled Russian girl asked me once, would I want to be like a man?

In so many ways, post-Communist Russia is a throwback to a bygone era, from its extreme social inequality to the tight-knit extended families that serve to protect both the young and old from the all-too-real dangers of the outside world. Nearly all Russian girls (and you’ll have to forgive me here, you’re not allowed to call a girl a “woman” in Russian, it’s like calling her an “old hag”) live at home until marriage. Due both to the strength of tradition and to a somewhat accidental legacy of Communism — ridiculously small apartments — most girls are also extremely close to their parents and grandparents, both physically and emotionally, and whether or not she works, a girl is expected by everyone in her extended family to marry, and marry well, by her early 20s.

The effect of this traditional social arrangement on the dating scene will be familiar to anyone who has read the great romantic novels of Jane Austen or Lev Tolstoy, which are smartly excerpted in the Kasses’ book. When a Russian girl emerges from her warm familial cocoon into society, any encounter with an eligible man — especially with a foreign man such as myself in these times when so many Russian men are impoverished — is fraught with intense expectation. Moscow simply pulses with female desire, of a kind that would be incomprehensible to “emancipated” western women raised to expect sexual gratification on demand. I have been consistently astonished by the intensity of the Russian female gaze. Without apology, a girl will publicly scope me out from head to toe before we have even been introduced, sizing me up as marriage material.

This intensity does not dissipate after the initial romantic encounter, either. First and second dates in Moscow can be gut-wrenching affairs, as a girl continues her merciless evaluation. If she is shrewd, by the end of the first week she will have ascertained your current and future earning power; your relative social status in Moscow society and the country from which you come; your degree of chivalry, or inherent capacity to make her feel beautiful and precious and irreplaceable; and of course your ability to entertain her, make her laugh, make merry with a crowd, and share your accumulated wisdom of the world. If, after all this, she likes you, she will present forthwith you to her parents, and if you pass muster there, well…this is the part I’ve had a bit of trouble with. By this point, it seems she wants you to marry her.

Many American acquaintances who hear my dating war stories from Moscow mock these marriage-ready women for being desperate, but I think that only illustrates their own spiritual emptiness. What I have concluded from my experience in Russia, rather, is how much a truly romantic, non-feminist woman expects from a man — and how poorly my culture has prepared me to give it to her.

But is it too late to learn? Is it possible to overcome the defects of one’s romantic education through a crash course such as that the Kasses offer in Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar? To acquire by intensive, belated study the kind of informed literary sensibility about love I or someone like me might have acquired more naturally, as if by osmosis, in another time or place?

Clearly such a crash course won’t make much difference if one is not already inclined to think about love and marriage in serious terms. I can’t imagine most of the people I went to college with curling up voluntarily with the Kasses’ book and converting en masse to the romantic doctrines of lifelong ego-renunciation and “till death do us part.”

For those of you who do still wish to court and be courted in a manner more meaningful than the current norm, Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar can undoubtedly help, although not all readers, of course, will benefit from the anthology in equal measure. My guess is that few men who have voluntarily picked up this anthology — and still fewer women — need to be convinced of the utility of marriage, a subject covered here by rather abstract arguments in its “defense,” by Aquinas, Erasmus, Darwin, and others. Likewise, many readers will already have encountered Shakespeare’s most famous sonnets, Romeo and Juliet, and the celebrated passages from Anna Karenina, War and Peace, Pride and Prejudice, and so on.

My one substantial objection is to the inclusion of Rousseau’s Emile, which the Kasses excerpt no less than four times. Whatever that book’s (anyhow arguable) literary merits, I just can’t stomach love-and-marriage advice coming from a man who was not only a deadbeat dad, but who, due to poisonous jealousies and social complexes I won’t go into, willfully shunned polite society and the company of women. Reader, in this case, beware!

That being said, the breadth of the Kasses’ selections assures that there will be something for everyone in this anthology, and I invite you all to find your own treasures. My own favorite passages were the essay of C.S. Lewis on the difference between eros (romantic passion) and venus (animal sexuality), two sensations which, I can attest from extensive personal experience, can easily be mistaken for one another; and Rilke’s elegant “Letters on Love,” which provides “beginners” like me a sense of the serious effort required to forge a lasting marital bond. “Whoever wants to have a deep love in his life,” Rilke counsels, “must collect and save for it and gather honey.”

If you want such a love, Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar is a good place to start. But the advice you find here is only the beginning. The real work lies ahead. Good luck to you all. I know I, for one, will need it.

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doamna Says:

August 13, 2008 at 8:43 pm
This was really wonderful, Manoah! Answers so beautifully all the objections some have had about behaving chivalrously to a good woman. I found especially wonderful that the courtship model that was so “old-fashioned to our parents” was exactly the model of my own romance with my husband, but none the less intense for all that. I cannot imagine it to be possible that one can have such an electrifying romantic experience when one has “been through the dating mill.” This modern system of dating kills the soul. You must be able to approach your mate with a fresh, clean heart and open eyes…

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Richard Says:

August 13, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Manoah,
Your new entry to this blog is one of the most valuable additions that any such venue could ever see. Clearly your references of the compilation “Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar” by Amy and Leon Kass along with your own experiences in life offer guidance and direction to us all. If some see your new thread as more review-like than truly heartfelt and revealing, then I feel they have missed your point. I see it as insightful, objective and articulate and even including some ‘disclaimers’ for the doubtful.
Try not to view yourself with ‘beginner’ status or as having too much to learn as if you are part of some minute fringe. The very nature of the Kass’ book added to the trials and frustration spoken of on this blog are evidence that a vast majority of men are in exactly the same position. To think that we might actually ‘understand’ women is a lofty and somewhat hopeless goal, but the idea of meeting an intelligent woman on a safe middle ground somewhere between understanding and loathing shouldn’t be so unattainable.
The way you have mixed personal experiences with excerpts from the book tells me that the writing is broadly focused to include most of us who struggle with the ‘new ways’ of doing things and also why the old ways were infinitely better for all.
There are a few of the conclusions that I can’t fully agree with, but that’s probably just me. The thought that marriage ‘civilizes’ men is true enough, but that this is somehow detrimental to those men has me at a bit of a loss. The trades we make as men by agreeing to spend our life with one woman are not some sort of biological challenge in my opinion. No matter what the Darwinists might say, man has been far more monogamous than the teaching we’ve had forced down our throats over the past 50 or 60 years would suggest. Archeological digs dating back thousands of years show more family structure than any lack of it. No men in any history books or Discovery Channel specials that I’ve ever seen were profoundly successful in any measure by the mere fact that they were unbridled breeders of a multitude. And in so much as many modern men will try to explain that they just can not be happy with one mate, I think that it is only as a result of carry over from their adolescent hormonal rush mixed with the overload of those modern moral and lifestyle changes spoken of here. Anyone who knows people in secure, loving and supportive marriages can tell that monogamy is a benefit to both parties. The civilizing aspect for men and the nesting side for women allow both to fulfill their destiny. Men can be the macho, ego driven hunter when their spouse is their biggest cheerleader and is genuinely appreciative of his skills and prowess. Women can be the nurturing and emotionally stabilizing force in the family only if their man is performing to his potential as provider.
I can’t wait to read “Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar” and I hope I will find as much value in it as you have. We will realize that value when our lives and the lives of others we come in contact with are positively affected by ideals and concepts we have learned.
Thanks for the great post.

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Manoah Says:

August 14, 2008 at 12:10 am
Hello Doamna,

Isn’t it ironic, how Anna Pasternak asks what’s happened to modern man’s chivalry? I’m just puzzled how a feminist could ask such a question; chivalry belongs within the domain of inequality between man and woman. He the stronger, she the weaker that he opens doors, helps with her winter coat, pays for her dinner and be courteous and gentlemanly. Chivalry pretty much gets thrown out the window with woman masculinating themselves. It becomes a casualty of equality.

You should count yourself and your husband the fortunate one with having tradition in courtship and the intimate relation that comes as the fruit of such labor. Its something modern society is sorely in need of.

As a single man, I can feel everything exactly as the author has gone through. And this book is really a treasure trove in terms of providing light in a world that is fairly dim if not dark in terms of romance and courtship.

I’ve learned so much already. My personal favourite is Ben Franklin’s article on Courtship and Marriage. He wrote of how to approach the matter and what to look for in a prospective and what to do and what not to do. Very practical advices from someone who lived centuries earlier. But his advices are never out of relevance and always in style.

I think the book will do a great service in helping us to go back to where things were the way they were before. A throw back to bygone era. It was interesting how the author found himself going to Russia to find old fashion romantic love. Very relevant to our purposes and pursuits here.

And lastly, along the same line with what GL’s been saying all along.

“If you want such a love, Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar is a good place to start. But the advice you find here is only the beginning. The real work lies ahead. Good luck to you all. I know I, for one, will need it.”

-M

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Manoah Says:

August 14, 2008 at 12:20 am
One more thing, all the principles that the book talks about, traditional, traditional courtship, friendship before romantic relations before marriage, chivalry, modesty for women, protector and provider role for men, mutual respect and esteem, serious attitude to finding a mate and marriage for life. All of these I have found to form the basis of Russian culture. Most Russian girls I run into and communicate with seem to carry all these principles as the norm. And the exact mirror opposite I find with our gals here at home. It’s like the normal world of love and romance is out there in another world and where we live here, this is Bizarro world created by the Bizarro feminists.

-M

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SunnyInSanDiego Says:

August 14, 2008 at 4:55 am
That’s a lot of great posting Manoah. I think I will pick that book up for my trip as well, it will be a great read for the plane and the stories an interesting conversation topic.

I’ll be on my way in 12 days 🙂

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Anna Says:

August 14, 2008 at 5:05 am
Manoah,
I approve of your recommendation for “Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar”. I remember picking it up from the library when I was in college. I don’t remember many specifics of the book now, but I do remember reading much of it when I should have been studying ;p In any event, I will have to get it out again for some review.

–Anna

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doamna Says:

August 14, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Coming back for a second read of your post, Manoah…
Impossible to find a copy of that book in the library system of this large metro area. Strange.

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Manoah Says:

August 16, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Hi Doamna,

Perhaps, I can suggest searching in a Universtiy library, since this anthology was put together by Univ. of Chicago professors.

Also, should it be to your interest to secure a personal copy, Amazon offers it both paperback and cloth cover versions from various merchants.

Hello Anna,

I’m glad that you’ve discovered this great book. A good education does not necessary come by way of what we learn in the classroom but as well what we can find in our own discoveries and adventures, our readings and living, our poking in the world asking questions, what’s the fundamental truth and synthesizing everything.

SiSD,

An excellent idea and Have a good and safe trip. Say Hello to Mascha and all the gals for us. 😉 The book will give you a good perspective, understanding and ideas on this whole process of courting. I think you’ll benefit immensely from reading it.

Hello Richard,

I must make a clarification and it is that the article was written by Sean McMeekin. Nonetheless, I am very glad that it has been a catalyst for your wanting to get a copy and read from it. I think you’ll enjoy an article by William Tucker on “Monogamy and Its Discontent” page 125.

“We will realize that value when our lives and the lives of others we come in contact with are positively affected by ideals and concepts we have learned.”

That is a true test of a good book, Richard, whether it alters our behavior from reading it. In my mind, in this instance, it is an unequivocal – Yes!! I know my approach to courting a woman has changed; I believe for the better and wiser.

Cheers

-M

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Manoah Says:

August 16, 2008 at 10:22 pm
The following is an article reviewing the book written by your typical feminist. It seems her reading has changed her perspective on life; or at least nudged it to the better.

-M
————————————-

SWF Seeks Marriage Partner
I’ve got it all. So why do I want a husband?
Sarah E. Hinlicky

July 1, 2000

I have every reason to despise this book. No matter what they say, this is the best time ever to be a white American woman. Universities are bristling with scholarships for me, dying to turn me into a leader of the free world because of the happy accident of my gender. Quota-fillers are swarming to my door begging for the grace of my employment with their firm. The glass ceiling lies shattered at the feet of the corporate stepladder I am compelled to climb. I haven’t even a qualm about walking through the parking lot at night to the car that shuttles me through my father- and husband-free life. I am fearless, bold, working, studying, opinionated, and successful.

There is only one flaw in my spotless life, a bitty little blemish that I must strive to conceal lest it mar the Teflon exterior of my precarious postmodern existence. And this relentless book exposes it. I want to get married, I whisper to the world, and with that the mighty warship of liberated womanhood is dashed to pieces between the Scylla of patriarchy and the Charybdis of femininity. I stand convicted: a humiliation to women everywhere.

The handbook to my downfall is innocuously titled Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar: Readings on Courting and Marrying, edited by Amy A. Kass and Leon R. Kass. A volume in the new Ethics of Everyday Life series from Notre Dame Press, it is an “unapologetically pro-marriage anthology,” as the dust jacket proclaims, intended to force well-trained feminists of both sexes to start asking the ickiest of questions: Why marry? What about sex? Is this love? How can I find and win the right one? Why a wedding? What can married life be like? (Conveniently enough, these are the subheadings of each section of the book.)

What’s worse, this anthology …

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GRY Says:

August 17, 2008 at 6:24 pm
This review illustrates the fact that many western women still don’t get it when it comes to relationships and require a book to tell them what their mothers should have told them when they were girls! It’s still all about competition and control with them all the time. It’s about who’s stronger and who’s weaker instead of being about mutual respect and partnership.

They’ve been so conditioned to believe that being “feminine” means being subservient and weak, which isn’t the case, at least it’s not with the men who read this blog. We are looking for a true partner, someone who is secure enough in their own identity that they aren’t out to prove it 24/7 and know that a lasting relationship is about working together, instead of one party working for the other as a servant/slave.

Modern women have forgotten the basic fact that true love comes from genuine respect and trust between people, something which most modern women can’t even begin to comprehend, programmed as they are to automatically hate and disparage anything masculine.

The book she mentioned will probably make the banned booklist of the feminazi hierarchy, I’d love to see how many women will secretly bought the book in a plain brown wrapper and hid it at home, the same way they did with the “Joy of Sex” back in the ’80s.

I do feel a bit sorry for those women who have bought into the who feminist superiority complex and male hatred, of course women who followed leaders like the late Andrea Dworkin, will soon pay the price for their “faith” in their feminist vision.

Anyone who has a strong enough stomach should read any short article by Dworkin and come to the same conclusion that this columnist did(ie she’s insane).
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/109179.html

Modern women will only find happiness after they’ve seen creatures like Dworkin for what they really are, hate filled demons pretending be angels, more like a KKK member in a dress and renounced them in their hearts.

I wonder what Russian women think of feminists like Dworkin? and if they would be horrified by her statements. I know a few Asian women who actually read some short material by her and can’t believe anyone would take her seriously. A mainland chinese woman told me she thought Dworkin must’ve had a serious mental illness and couldn’t believe people in the west took her seriously. I told her to drop into any women’s resource center at any university campus and mention Dworkin’s name and she would see how seriously she was believed.

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Taras Says:

August 17, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Andrea Dworkin was psychotic and she was a monster in the same league as Hitler or Stalin. She died a few years ago, no doubt as a result of her debauched and amoral lifestyle. Her legacy will be the deaths of millions and the collapse of western societies. Like gay men, lesbians die an early death from all sorts of diseases and substance abuse. I would imagine most Russia women would probably be horrified by this succubus, which is a female demon.

Taras

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SunnyInSanDiego Says:

August 23, 2008 at 5:19 am
I simply enjoy being able to talk with the guys that I work with that have traveled to other countries because they have all noticed that the women act different elsewhere. Many of these guys are at the present single or all they do is talk about how amazing these foreign women are. If you visit any country but N. America, western Europe, or Australia it seems you will notice differences in the way women act. Almost all of these differences are for the better too.

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keith841 Says:

April 11, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Ok!
I’m just about SOLD on this idea. I want to learn as much as possable about Russian women, Russian culture and whats involved in spending some time over there and attempting to meet a compatable Russian woman. I dont want to jump into something unless I have educated myself about the facts ahead of time. Any suggestions from experienced men who have traveled there to meet a woman? Where do I start? Any help greatly appreciated….

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Westerngirl Says:

April 12, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I have no problem with Russian women. I sadly have worked with fellow Western women who are usualy psycho or backstabbing. This has not always been the case some are nice. But the first exampe is sadly more common.I also know American women who are not mean but have issues. I just don’t have much in common with them. In fact I sometimes feel I get better along with foreign women (who seem nicer). I am neighbors with an Asian woman and enjoy talking to her. I also consider her a friend.

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PinoyBoy Says:

April 14, 2009 at 12:45 am
When a Filipino man marries a Russian woman, what does that say about the modern Filipina (Filipino woman)?

A close friend of mine, met a Russian girl while abroad in America. They are planning to get married.

Filipinas are becoming more feminist these days. My advise to western men? Go to Russia.

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SunnyInSanDiego Says:

April 14, 2009 at 1:35 am
keith,

You can try local. Go to meetup.com and try keywords like Russian, Ukranian, etc. Unless you are really out in the middle of nowhere there are Russian events going on all around you. Don’t think that because you are not Russian you can’t go either. I guarantee you will be welcomed and enjoy yourself.

Abroad? You should try and make connections. These can be made through getting to know FSU people here in the USA, or also you can try the Russian areas of sites like ICQ, which is popular among the girls, to try and get some hopefully reliable contacts. As of right now I would feel perfectly safe and comfortable heading to Omsk, Moscow, Prague, Kiev, or Odessa as I have gotten to know reliable people from all these areas.

sunnyinsd@mail.com

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Manoah Says:

April 16, 2009 at 5:00 am
Keith,

“I dont want to jump into something unless I have educated myself about the facts ahead of time.”

Smart move. SSD gave some good advice. I would add to get more cultural experiences, both socially and through much readings. I would try to read most if not all of GL’s blog here. There’s lots of good ideas (from GL) as well as inputs (from posters). You’ll get plenty of ideas and just branch out from there. It’s a big world.

Also, try to learn the language. A good friend of mine always told me to learn Russian because its a command language. And the way a Russian gal loves her man is to be strong like a wall. And Russian language projects that strength; to give a perspective, observe how a Klingon speaks and you get the idea.

When you run into trouble with your future Russian girlfriend, just speak Russian as a Klingon and you’ll be fine.

Good luck,

-M

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PinoyBoy Says:

April 19, 2009 at 4:09 am
I am a Filipino man and I like Russian/FSU women. Why? Because all the beautiful women I dated in my country are becoming very westernized. They want to be like American women.

What percentage of Russian/FSU women like southeast Asian guys? Would a Russian woman like to live in a country like the Philippines? I am a middle class. I was surprised that my friend (Filipino) is successful courting a Russian girl in America.

God bless

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Taras Says:

April 19, 2009 at 6:02 pm
I do not think you would have too much trouble meeting young ladies in the FSU, as long as you’re a good man who knows how to treat a lady. Making the effort to understand the culture and language will help you a lot, and Russians and Ukrainians are Christians. You should be aware however Ukrainians and Russians are not the same people and their language, culture and religions are not the same. Many people in the eastern part of Ukraine are in fact Russians who are Orthodox Christians, whereas in the western region of the country they are Ukrainians. There you will find them to be either Ukrainian Orthodox or Roman Catholics. It would also be a good idea to steer clear of politics, there are very strong nationalist feelings in some parts of the FSU, especially against Russians. Be aware also that the central Asian republics are mostly Muslim, and the cultural differences as it is can be vast without adding religion to the mix. Be a gentleman, be careful and if nothing else, enjoy seeing a region of the world relatively few outsiders have been able to really see firsthand until the fall of the Soviet Union because much of it was off limits to foreigners and most Soviet citizens as well.

Taras

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PinoyBoy Says:

April 20, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Thanks for the advice Taras. I read somewhere that most Russian women prefer white men. I think it was like 80%. I can not remember where I read that. It was years ago. That is why I lost interest in Russian women. Because I am an Asian Filipino (from the Philippines). But my close friend in America (also Filipino) has a Russian girlfriend and that is what made me re-consider Russian women. Because it is proof to me that Russian women can be attracted to Asian Filipino men.

It seems that all the educated beautiful women in the Philippines are becoming more westernized. I am considered very handsome in my country, but I wonder if Russian girls would agree?

God bless

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Taras Says:

April 20, 2009 at 1:08 pm
That is no surprise given that people tend to prefer those who resemble themselves. My Slavic appearance stands out here like a sore thumb, and I don’t do much for the locals. Just as well, I loathe women who want to act like men. Many Russian women are well educated, but motherhood is also very important to their sense of worth as a person. If you want to be a husband and father, you could meet that special someone in the FSU. If you have a sense of humor, can sing or play a musical instrument and dress like the locals, you’ll make a good impression. You’ll find the people in Russia to be diverse ethnically with a good many with both European and Asian heritage.I understand very well why you’re disillusioned with women in general because it’s the same here in the USA, only much worse. That is why I am not married here in the U.S. However, I would be the best person I can be and don’t worry about what women think. You after all have to live your own life, not someone else’s.

Taras

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Anna Says:

November 10, 2009 at 5:06 pm
I agree with your post that women are becoming more and more manly. I see it everyday and it makes me sick. On the other hand, I don’t think women are the only problem here. Men in America are becoming more and more feminine also. I also see this everyday. The fact that I have to initiate dates with men sickens me and I hate doing it. Guys ask me, “oh well why should was always have to ask you out?” Well, because that is how it’s always been. Believe it or not, the only men that have initiated dates with me and generally looked for a relationship with me have been Russian men. You know if you’re with a Russian man, that he is going to make you feel like a woman. I’ve never felt this with an American man. I always feel like I’m the one protecting him. That’s why you guys see guys who act submissive to their girlfriends: they don’t have the balls to take the wheel.

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1. Richard Says:
  
  November 19, 2009 at 6:07 pm
  Anna,
  Just a few thoughts regarding the melding of the genders in today’s world, particularly in North America.
  First of all, we do know that the manliness of womanhood is a direct and disheartening result of the whole feminist movement and its socialist agenda. That was a given. But the consequent emasculating of NA men is an apparently deep psychological side effect of the same movement. Essentially men have ‘given up’ being manly because it is so pointless to fight something which is so dramatically stacked against you. That key component, the giving up part, is the root of every other symptom we see in men no longer wanting to take leadership roles in business, social or interpersonal relationships.
  While we (men) may have evolved past the need to kick some other guy’s ass every time he looks at our woman or cuts us off in traffic, the reality is that there’s still some ass kicking to be done. Weakened versions of men, raised by single moms without the benefit of male role models, are walking the streets of NA acting as though the world ‘owes them’ respect despite the fact that they have less testosterone flowing through their veins than a rock. Their mommies have raised them with the entitlement mind set; with the ‘pretend you love’ everyone no matter what then ‘take whatever you can get’ when you run attitude.
  Women said they wanted equality when in truth they were plotting for a complete reversal of traditional gender roles. Now they have it. They have the corporate titles, the status cars, the ‘sensitive’ men and the ‘right’ to direct their own destiny. With that they now have the heart disease and heart attacks, the stress and anxiety, their machismo careers and men with the backbones of a slug. They are a bunch of washed up ‘40 somethings’ that look like they are 60 and their stinking, self righteous attitude drives real men away faster than rats abandoning a sinking ship. Those women have exactly what they deserve; empty, lonely, desolate lives. They sit around in groups, swilling martinis and imagining what could have been while still blaming all of the men in the world because Utopia never materialized.
  What MAN in his right mind would want to have ANYTHING to do with such trash? And what are the young men seeing as an example to follow? Behavior is LEARNED and there are NO TEACHERS left in the school of life.
  There was a 24 or 25 year old girl on this blog a year or two ago talking about how much she “knows about relationships because she took a human relations course in college”. She went on to say that the only real change caused by feminism was women were now being given a fair chance in the job market, but that the difference in dating these days was caused by men who are pissed off about no longer being in control of ‘everything’. Is that the kind of ‘women’ that we men are supposed to be looking for as a potential wives and mothers for our children?
  Be clear on this point: REAL men are not submissive to their women because REAL women do not want a submissive man. Real women want to be treated like a woman, like a lady, like someone of dignity and honor and real men want the same level of respect from their woman. It is in our DNA; it is in every page of our history for as long as anyone can recall.
  Men have the balls to take the wheel, if ever a woman of character shows up to go along for the ride.
  
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2. Taras Says:
  
  November 23, 2009 at 7:05 am
  American women all too often have all the warmth and charm of an enraged and cornered porcupine. If you’ve seen what a porcupine looks like, you’ll understand why no predator will bother one more than once. After years of being stuck with their quills, as in acting like men are the enemy just for talking with them, many men just give up on them and leave. I lost count of how many fishwives, read really bad tempered, brat women I’ve run into. Many western women radiate hostility in their non-verbal behaviors, and that is what men call a “bitch shield.” So if you want men to even try approaching you, make sure you’re not unintentionally presenting a bitch shield to him, because overworked, over tired and sometimes overstressed men are not going to deal with it. They will simply approach someone else, or just keep to themselves. I sure don’t want to approach American women anymore, I’m tired of their nasty attitudes because I have to spend the energy to pull their quills out.
  
  Taras
  
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  1. Richard Says:
    
    November 23, 2009 at 3:50 pm
    Well put. I’ve seen a cornered porcupine and the face of the dog that tried to remove it from it’s hiding place. That is a great analogy.
    I also totally agree with the “bitch shield” idea but often think this is what women choose to do as some sort of filtering mechanism. It seems as if they are trying to see what man is ‘persistant’ enough to fight his way through that barbed wired greeting.
    All in all, like you say, it is easier to just walk away alone than to go through all of that crap, especially when the ‘prize’ is antagonistic at best and generally empty of emotional value.
  2. Anna Says:
    
    November 23, 2009 at 7:28 pm
    Thank you for both of your responses.
    
    Richard, I find your response very insightful and agree that kids aren’t being taught the right things anymore. My friend’s mom (who is from Mexico) would always tell her that men will only try to hurt her, that her friends will eventually stab her in the back, and that if she wants something, she only has herself to count on. I think that’s ridiculous to tell your daughter. My mom, on the other hand, was a little more traditional with me, but of course has encouraged me to go for what I want. I know that I tend to have more traditional “male interests” (i.e. sports, cars), but I always do my best to act and look feminine. I think it’s important for everyone to look decent because that’s how you’re presenting yourself to the world.
    
    Taras, I’m not putting off a “bitch shield.” Of course Americans have approached me, but they do it in a radically different way than “the traditional way.” They never ask me out on dates. After a few encounters, they will often say (through e-mail or text message, never to my face) “so…I like you a lot.” And that’s usually it. It’s just so different from how I want it to be. The only legitimate dates I’ve gone on have been with Russians (and that’s not to say that I won’t give any guy a chance because everyone is different). And I’ve asked them, “Why aren’t you dating a Russian girl? Aren’t they supposed to be the most beautiful in the world?” And they usually say things like: “They only want sex;” “Russian women treat you like you’re a child;” “They expect me to buy everything for them;” “Too high maintenance;” and the list goes on. Of course it is absolutely ludicrous to say this about an entire group of people. I’ve been friends with Russian women and I find them no different than I am. Some even won’t cook, whereas my best American friend loves to cook for her man and treat him like a king! The point I’m trying to make is that it’s unfair to make sweeping generalizations. It hurts my feelings that you think my mom, grandma, friends, and I are all manly bitches. 😥
  3. Richard Says:
    
    November 24, 2009 at 7:11 pm
    Anna,
    
    It is very comforting to listen to the way you describe ‘traditional’ ways of meeting and interacting with the NA men. We both see the world as we might like or expect it to be, but then also how it actually is these days. It’s too bad that the right person hasn’t noticed our efforts and desires.
    When a man treats a woman in such a ‘matter of fact’ way it devalues them as a person. Whether that is the intent or not, the effect remains the same. On that same token, when modern NA women treat men as though the man ‘owes them’ some particular level of respect even before showing that they deserve it, the men are clearly put off by what they perceive as a ‘bitchy’ attitude. Again, whether the intentional or not the result is the same.
    Here’s the confusion in my mind after years of relationships and watching this transition develop; if we are all seeking, expecting or even demanding the same treatment from members of the opposite sex, then why is it that so many are unwilling to make the first step toward open and honest relations? It doesn’t take getting involved with someone for me to know if that person’s core values conflict with my own. What’s more, I have no problem just walking away from those women who seem bent on keeping score and needing to declare a ‘victory’ of some sort after the inevitable end of the relationship.
    When did this all become so adversarial? Well, surely if anybody has seen any of my previous posts, they know my feelings regarding when and how this all took place, but why is it that nobody seems willing to put their effort into reversing the trend?
    
    Everyone,
    
    Men; why not give a little and let a woman show you who they really are before dismissing their possible benefits or simply discarding them like yesterday’s news? And women; when are you going to get over yourselves and realize that we need each other to make this work? To all of you who are between 20 and 35 years of age, single and hoping for a lasting romantic relationship; here’s a little clue . . . . . . it is NOT all about YOU. You simply can not stand in front of and empty fireplace and demand heat before supplying wood and a flame. If you give nothing you will get nothing. “Oh but what if I get hurt?” Grow up! Life is full of hurt. Stop whining and take some risks. There is no need to be stupid about it. You don’t have to go hanging out in meat market bars and expect to find ‘the one’. That’s like trying to pick blueberries in a strawberry patch. But if you have a social circle and there are people in there with similar backgrounds and beliefs, step out and say “Hi” to someone. Don’t put on a show or see how impressive you can be. Be yourself and let the cards fall where they may. If you have to put on a show to win them, you will have to continue to put on a show all of the time in order to keep them. Trust me; that will get old fast and end tragically. (Been there, done that.) Decide who you can or can not be with before you start looking and make sure that your criteria are valid, not superficial. Remember that you don’t need to be with a super model or a movie star to be happy. Be realistic. Most of us are pretty average when compared to those standards and most of us will be much happier with someone like us than we would be with someone in one of those ivory towers. (I’ve dated a couple of famous people and they really don’t have the same kind of time for meaningful relationships as the rest of us do.) Once you are completely honest with yourself about the kind of person you could be happy with and could make happy in return, then get out there and search for what you want, not what you can get by with. Disappointment, like so many other things in life is something that we must learn about and how to handle. It’s real and it’s everywhere in our modern, fast paced world. Accept it and go on with your life. We can all be content in life without being dazzled every day.
    It is nearly impossible to stress the value of a partner who desires only to be loved equally to the amount of love they can give. We are all different in that respect. Some can give until it parts the clouds in the sky, and some of us have trouble just saying, “I love you” but we are all after the same thing. We want to be held, nurtured, loved and respected. We all have the ability to make someone happy and in that act, our own happiness will be secured. Our happiness in life is not dependant on the love of others as much as it is dependant on how much we are able to express our love to others. For anyone who has not yet discovered the difference, I feel sorry for you. I’m sad that you have not yet identified the wonder of sharing the best that you have to offer and having the same passion returned to you. If you ever get to that point in life and for some reason it comes to an end, never let it be said that you are the one who stopped giving. Never shoulder the responsibility for letting a warm and wonderful fire die out simply because you were tired of turning the ashes and adding another log.
  4. Taras Says:
    
    November 24, 2009 at 9:10 pm
    I never said you were doing that, I was pointing out that body language is noticed more that what people say. I don’t know you, and thus I made no assumptions about you. However, I see this time and time again from American women I encounter, and that puts me off. You are right about one thing though, many American men don’t know how to approach women in a respectful manner. Which does unfortunately sets the stage for the “bitch shield” going up. I know I come across as harsh and jaded, but unfortunately I’ve had many negative experiences with the opposite sex and that is why I as blunt as I am. I apologize if I hurt your feelings, but I was not accusing you of this behavior.
    
    Taras
Ivanka Says:

November 15, 2009 at 8:00 pm
An even worse result of the above is when you cannot be yourself and be nice, etc. without being accused of taking the lead in trying to ask the man out (who shouldn’t have to be asked out by the woman in the first place).
I would rather the Eastern European culture where I just feel like a treasure that doesn’t make social flaws in talking to men.

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1. Richard Says:
  
  November 19, 2009 at 7:04 pm
  Ivanka,
  In much the same way as my response to what Anna has mentioned, the line between proper or expected behavior and something that is improper or unwelcomed behavior, is now long gone.
  Today’s man has become desensitized to recognizing a woman of character simply because so few of them exist on the modern NA landscape. Most young men will make the rash (and possibly wrong) assumption that a woman who initiates conversation in social circles is some sort of ‘macho wanna-be feminist’ rather than just a woman who desires open communication.
  You simply must understand that NA men have been deceived, beaten down, disrespected and emasculated for the past 40 years or so and it is unlikely that they are going to assume the best in such situations.
  If you are in your mid twenties and you want to find a guy around your age for building a relationship, almost no man in that category has any practical knowledge of what it means to be a MAN, OR how to treat a woman. Please remember that the men you will encounter today are mostly faint shadows of what manhood used to be. Sure they can act like men but the basic character of man was done away with by quota hiring, one sided family court judges, single moms raising boys and everything else that feminism brought to the table. It has merely become easier for most men to expect the worst while hoping for something better, though certainly not the best.
  We are witnessing an entire generation of young women who have no clue how to act like a woman and young men who can’t even spell the word chivalry must less display it.
  I don’t know you or your background and it doesn’t really matter much, but the things you are saying are also said by young women who are demanding proper treatment by guys even though they themselves act like tramps and losers. While your character and virtue may be intact, the same things that you long for in relationships are the echoes of millions of women who so greatly lack dignity as to deserve the empty, loveless lives they are building for themselves. I can imagine the frustration that you must feel when you see these wimpy excuses for men around you but please understand that this modern foray is no more exciting for the few men of true character out there searching for the same values as you.
  We live in a time where governments have removed dignity from our social lives by legislating mediocrity. Political correctness has trumped common sense and people are being brought into court for misinterpreting a conversation.
  When my parents were dating, a long distance relationship meant having to drive 15 or 20 minutes to meet up. When I was a young adult, long distance meant a 2 or 3 hour drive. By the time of my marriage, long distance for me was a 4 to 5 hour plane ride. Today, we are looking at meeting people from other countries as ‘normal’ in order to find the specific traits and characteristics we seek in a mate. With that said, doesn’t it seem a bit silly of us all to expect that the things we want in a relationship should be as common as they were 80 to 100 years ago? Times have changed, and continue to change. It is not easy to get from life all that you want, but start by giving it all that you have.
  
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  1. Evushka Says:
    
    November 19, 2009 at 10:50 pm
    Richard,
    I find your comment very true. I’m Russian in US in my late twenties and find myself attracted to older Americans in their late forties for the same reasons you have described in your post. I find values of older American generation much closer to Russian’s. They treat you like a lady, they know how to be in charge and be a gentlemen. They are not boys, they are MEN. And age has nothing to do with this, it’s about character, attitude, inner strength, values. Too bad they all married. Still looking for the one and only…
    Evushka
  2. Richard Says:
    
    November 19, 2009 at 11:17 pm
    Evushka,
    It is so nice to hear that you agree. It reassures me that there is hope for the younger generation.
    Remember that if you are left with the choice of being with someone that does not meet the standards you desire or else to be alone, it is better to remain alone than it is to sacrifice what you believe in. Eventually the right kind of man will meet the right kind of woman. Little by little we might see a return to values in NA. I think it is very sad that so many people who want to share their life with someone of character must search so hard to find them.
    Not all of those older guys who know how to treat a woman are married. Unfortunately we are all sitting at home wondering what happened to all of the honest and trustworthy women.
Ivanka Says:

December 3, 2009 at 8:55 pm
The sad part is, that what you say Richard is true about younger men today. Except (to answer Evushka’s comment), it does have to do with age sorta in that the younger men have had a different kind of influence and are living in a different (as in, worse) era than the older men. There ARE younger men that haven’t been deluded (about how they see themselves as men, etc.) by feminism, but, from what I have seen … they are not the norm.
I also agree that what I said above sounds the same as the girls that “demand their rights”. I know all too well, having met them … but I am not like that. I was just referring to the hassle I’ve gotten from these other women that ARE like that, when they discover that I am comfortable talking to men. It is because my father brought me up well though 🙂 He taught me to be respectful and courteous … habits that many Americans have completely forgotten.
~ Ivanka

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Richard Says:

December 17, 2009 at 5:50 pm
While wandering through some profiles of young, single, American women on a popular dating site, I came across the following personal information posted by a 26-30 year old from New York. She is a professed Christian who does not attend any church, considers herself smart and of above average looks. She says that she is ‘unsure’ of what sort of relationship she is seeking and ‘undecided’ about having kids. But read the rather detailed description of her personality and then tell me (guys) if you would actively search out a woman like this as a potential wife and mother of your children.
While I can not fault her for being completely honest about herself, this is exactly what millions of other NA women are really like, but won’t admit to.

Things that have been said about me:
“You’re the most intriguing person I’ve ever met”
“You get what you want because you’re adorable and have a subtle accent”
“I really want to see you for reasons unknown”
“I’m intrigued by you because you’re adorable, you have the wit of my brother, the childish and romantic perspective of poet, and the itchiness of a monster friend”
“You romantic little minx”
“I’m scared you’ll tear my heart into 4,000 pieces and sell them online”

Things about me that will want you to never ever want to see my pretty little face:
I can be moody and disappear for days.
I can be extremely needy. And then extremely cold.
I can be picky.
I can ask you for your opinion and then turn around and do exactly what I wanted to do anyway.
I get what I want. A lot.
When I lived with my parents, I fought with my dad every single day. But my family are the people I most cherish in this world.
I test limits non-stop.
I question every single time someone says something good about me.
I will often make decisions that influence more people than myself.
I fantasize. Oftentimes I’ll make a picture in my head of who someone is and believe that more than ‘reality’. I believe ‘reality’ should always go in quotes.
I have verbal arguments about stupid things, and won’t stop till I win.
I’m a last-word freak.
It’s hard for me to grasp the concept of ‘danger’ and that might get me killed someday.
I’m a reckless driver.
I don’t send postcards and often forget birthdays.
I contact people mostly when I need something from them. Though I know how awful that is. I’m just very sweet about it and usually get away with it. Actually, I use sweetness to get a lot of things done.
If something doesn’t excite me and I don’t believe in it, I’m the worst procrastinator in the world. I will leave it literally till the last minute. I have missed a good number of flights. But somehow always found a way around it. So it’s hard to learn.

Some cool things about me:
I’m in one of the various forms of a happy state 92% of the time.
I’m a super duper go-getter. I’m addicted to challenges.
I’m considered multi-talented but I’m ultra modest about it.
I’m as flexible and non-touchy as a girl can get.
I’m a people person all the way.
I’m passionate about what I do and what I believe in.

Have any of you men ever encountered this sort of person in your dating lives? Does this sort of person have anything to do with why you are considering other countries for a mate?

Consider the truth about who we all are and realize that this type of ‘mixed bag’ of personality traits is the new ‘norm’ in our western culture. It is not attractive or appealing to most of us, but it is what it is. NA women, especially these younger ones, are so disheveled in their characteristics that every day is destined to be a guessing game at best to see who you will wake up next to. Reading through this the first time, I was struck with the thought: just pick one personality and stick with it.

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Anna M Says:

December 18, 2009 at 4:42 am
Well, as you said, Richard, at least she does not try to hide her flaws…but I guess the real problem is she might not see them as flaws? That does seem to be the problem with many younger people today. Their motto is: “I am who I am; deal with it,” rather than trying to be the best that they can be for others.

–Anna M

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