I just came across a interesting article from the UK Telegraph that stated something that most of us already know.
Men lose their minds speaking to pretty women.
I sure hope this study wasn’t too expensive because I could have given them the same information for the cost of an iced tea. (Actually I probably would’ve given it for free.)
In any case I certainly didn’t need a fancy research lab to discover this. I know this simply because I see it all the time with the various Men who travel to this part of the world in search of true love.
Now as fun as it may seem for you Gentlemen to take a spur of the moment road trip to Cloud 9 without your trusty little GPS in hand there is a serious side to this which all of you should pay close attention to.
Because getting lost in what you believe is love (but is actually lust or infatuation) can be a VERY EXPENSIVE and VERY DISAPPOINTING journey.
It usually starts with a man who is devoid of any feminine attention who starts corresponding with only a picture of some younger beauty on the Internet.
I can hardly find fault with them but it is simply way too easy for these Gentlemen to lose their minds, let their imaginations roam and believe that they have “found love”.
Now if he’s one of the lucky few who actually makes it over to the FSU to meets his lady then he’s really at risk for losing his marbles if he’s truly attracted to the girl standing before him. Now I totally understand that these hazy feelings can be a very beautiful thing because Mother Nature can do blissful, wonderful things in matters of love and attraction.
But the flip side is this.
Lack of common sense can often bring about confusion and BAD Decision making.
So before any of you Gentlemen go flying off to marry the first girl who gives you any attention try to take a step back and realize that there is a powerful force in play that will most certainly impair your judgement as to what the best woman may be for you to build a future with.
ALWAYS keep your options open and try to meet as many everyday women as possible because..
Contrasts + Comparisons = Common Sense
Men lose their minds speaking to pretty women
Talking to an attractive woman really can make a man lose his mind, according to a new study.
Pat Hagan
Published: 03 Sep 2009
The research shows men who spend even a few minutes in the company of an attractive woman perform less well in tests designed to measure brain function than those who chat to someone they do not find attractive.
Researchers who carried out the study, published in the Journal of Experimental and Social Psychology, think the reason may be that men use up so much of their brain function or ‘cognitive resources’ trying to impress beautiful women, they have little left for other tasks.
The findings have implications for the performance of men who flirt with women in the workplace, or even exam results in mixed-sex schools.
Women, however, were not affected by chatting to a handsome man.
This may be simply because men are programmed by evolution to think more about mating opportunities.
Psychologists at Radboud University in The Netherlands carried out the study after one of them was so struck on impressing an attractive woman he had never met before, that he could not remember his address when she asked him where he lived.
Researchers said it was as if he was so keen to make an impression he ‘temporarily absorbed most of his cognitive resources.’
To see if other men were affected in the same way, they recruited 40 male heterosexual students.
Each one performed a standard memory test where they had to observe a stream of letters and say, as fast as possible, if each one was the same as the one before last.
The volunteers then spent seven minutes chatting to male or female members of the research team before repeating the test.
The results showed men were slower and less accurate after trying to impress the women. The more they fancied them, the worse their score.
But when the task was repeated with a group of female volunteers, they did not get the same results. Memory scores stayed the same, whether they had chatted to a man or a woman.
In a report on their findings the researchers said: ‘We conclude men’s cognitive functioning may temporarily decline after an interaction with an attractive woman.’
Psychologist Dr George Fieldman, a member of the British Psychological Society, said the findings reflect the fact that men are programmed to think about ways to pass on their genes.
‘When a man meets a pretty woman, he is what we call ‘reproductively focused’.
‘But a woman also looks for signs of other attributes, such as wealth, youth and kindness. Just the look of the man would be unlikely to have the same effect.’
September 8, 2009 at 3:42 am
Here is where many younger men get into a world of trouble with younger women, who use this fact against men. It’s how they manipulate them, for beneficial or harmful purposes. In the western world, the government and women on one side are adversaries of men on the other. Fortunately, men with age and experience learn how to recognize and deal with women’s efforts to manipulate them, deliberate or not better. That in and of itself is neither good nor bad, and without it we won’t be around to even discuss it. What some women do with it is definitely bad for men, themselves and society as a whole.
Taras
September 8, 2009 at 6:14 am
While this is definitely not a groundbreaking study and certainly 40 volunteers are not a large cross section of any population, the fact remains that this sort of reminder should be heeded.
We all know that men are ‘reproductively focused’, or as it is better known; perpetually horny, but that is no reason to feel as if there is nothing we can do about it. We men should never think that we are unable to learn from and adapt to the modern way of doing things. If anything this should signal a deep desire to work within the parameters found in current dating environments.
What’s more, it is this very characteristic of men that enables women to be so unaffected by encounters with a charming or handsome man. And as much as I would love to lay all of that blame at the feet of the feminazis, they are only the militant follow up to what nature has already provided for us.
For thousands of years women have known the power that they hold over men. Anyone who disagrees, keep dreaming. History has a funny way of proving the fact. So isn’t it advantageous for us to utilize this knowledge to reduce the ‘magical’ hold women have over our mental functions? Of course it is.
In baseball we learn how to hold off that first bullet thrown by an unfamiliar pitcher. We had to LEARN that, guys. And even knowing it, we still struggle with it. So we can also learn to hold off that first drooling on our shirt, knuckle dragger instinct to mate just because she looks so damn hot.
You should be able to tell within seconds if you have shown your hand by her calm, cool reaction to whatever you opened with. While she is casually making you ‘work’ for it, think of the 3 Rs: relax, resist and retreat. The more you force your ‘masterful machismo’ on her, the more she knows she is in control of your mind. Unless you have never (and I do mean never) had a date of any kind, then you already know that there is more than one pretty woman on the planet and more than one chance to be with one of them.
So, r e l a x for God’s sake. Take a moment to remember that women burp, fart and ‘go poo’ just like we do. Pretty is not perfect, okay? Resist her beauty and attraction so that you can fully assess what it is you want come from meeting her. Retreat from your initial onslaught long enough to think about what you are saying to her as not to sound like a chump, or more importantly to give yourself time to listen to what she is saying. You will never get to know her by rambling on about why you are so wonderful. Stop trying to impress her. Let her impress you. The more you listen, the better conversationalist you will appear to be in her mind. Just trust me on this.
As far as the whole idea of men being ‘more’ reproduction focused than women, well that may be true from a purely biological standpoint, though I don’t really agree; considering the whole woman’s biological clock and all.
However, if we have seen nothing else come of the sexual revolution, we should at the very least acknowledge the fact that many, many women today are on the prowl for good old fashion, down and dirty, screaming and sweaty, skin slapping sex. Open ANY adult dating site in the world and you will soon realize that there are literally millions of women looking for quick, no strings attached, s e x. Those women are an ever increasing percentage and add to that the ‘for profit’ marriage and divorce game that is so popular now, and you end up understanding why we are all searching so hard for a woman of character.
We can all have our personal views on why meeting someone special seems so damn hard these days, but let’s just face it; we have become so selfish as a people that we no longer care about pleasing or satisfying someone else. Until we can take our eyes off of our own wants long enough to get to know somebody to the point that we actually care about making them happy, we will never find that elusive life partner.
September 8, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Good advice as usual from Richard.
As in any other aspect of life – “cooler heads prevail”.
September 8, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Excellent post, Richard. I have found that as I have gotten older and I “mature”, that I thoroughly enjoy just talking with women of all ages. Frankly, though I am not completely dead yet :), I am glad I have left those hormone fueled years behind.
September 10, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Albert Einstein once said “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. I’ve had one blind date in the last 15 years to an Italian Catholic which ended abruptly after I stuck my foot in my mouth when I told her what I thought of the Catholic church and after frequenting this site for nearly 2 years, I’m not any further along today than when I started. Hope deferred is making my heart sick.
September 10, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Hello Mick,
If you can’t find what you are looking for in your region, why not send rwman a note, and talk with him about a trip to Eastern Europe?
September 12, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Sam,
I’ve been mulling over the idea of making the trip for some time now. Except, I get zero support from family and ridicule friends. It’s no secret to them that I run from the plague of western women and my intentions are to seek a mate outside of the US of A. When asked about my perpetual state singleness and they learn about my dreams, I get a lot of eye rolling, course jesting and reminded of everything and I mean EVERYTHING that could go wrong. Until I gain more confidence, there is going to be one lonesome lady in the world and hopefully she’ll wait for me.
September 12, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Mick,
It is very easy for others to tell us what is best for “us”. Especially when they are not going through the same situations as we are. Also, in business or in personal life, the people who care most for us can (and often are) the least supportive. But it’s ‘for our own good’ naturally.
I appreciate that many of my family and friends treat my comments about finding love ‘off shore’ in much the same way as yours do. But since they don’t have to live my life, I will continue to appreciate it, just not be controlled by it.
There is an old adage that says, “Observe the masses, then do the opposite”. If everyone ‘knew’ what the best career is, they’d all be happy multi millionaires. If everybody ‘knew’ who the best mate was, there wouldn’t be a 60% divorce rate in NA.
‘To one’s self be true’ still holds the key. Focus your energy on finding the one person on earth that you can make happier than they could ever be without you; no matter where they are. Try to avoid searching the planet for the woman who makes you happy as soon as possible. While there is no promise of even one more breath, we should still view this process as if we have all of the time in the world.
Rush into nothing, savor everything; good or bad. Experience the life experience. If that means an adventure to another country looking for romance, so be it. If it doesn’t, that’s okay, too.
I have often called my life a never ending series of mediocre events strung together with kitchen twine. White bread with nothing on it, vanilla ice cream without chocolate syrup, one huge grey on grey color scheme. Then someone tells me to write a book, or two and I wonder who the heck they are talking to.
There doesn’t need to be any grand epiphany when you decide to travel. Book the flight far enough in advance to get a good price and leave on the day that you’ve chosen. If you find nothing more than a few great restaurants and a bad hotel mixed in with a cab driver that took you to the wrong side of the city, come home and tell the story to all who will listen. If by chance you stumble onto a wonderful young lady in the process, you have won an extra bonus. Still, it will take many months or even years before it develops into a long term relationship so it won’t be like picking up a souvenir in some shopping district. The first trip is like testing the water. Go there with your mind and heart open but don’t leave reality and common sense at home. You are going ‘to check things out’ not to buy a house and move in the next day.
The right person will either be waiting for you until you find her, or she won’t. But no matter what, you can still be you. The hell with what others think. Book a vacation and enjoy the trip. You aren’t going in order to find a wife, you are going to see if that is where you want your wife to be from.
September 10, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Hey Mick,
One thing that seems clear to me these days in my encounters with ‘modern women’ is that you must be very careful when expressing opinions about anything. It isn’t like I remember as a younger man when I could share my thoughts and the conversation or date would continue on. Things were open for discussion and everyone seemed entitled to their opinion. Now everyone seems so darn touchy about everything.
While most people say that they want open and honest relationships, being open and honest appears to be a huge risk. That, to me, reinforces the many complaints we have with the whole dating scene today.
If a guy can’t be open and honest then he must ‘know’ what role to play. That seems pretty exhausting to me. A good friend of mine said that he left college with a great new job offer but that the job was quite up-tight compared to his life at school. He began trying to act ‘right’ for each situation and eventually found himself having to wear more than one hat at once in a particular setting. He said it was frustrating and confusing so he decided to, “just be himself and if anyone didn’t like it, he wasn’t going to worry about it”. The rest of his career has been much more relaxed and he has been very successful in both his personal and professional life.
Unto one’s self be true, is the old adage that best serves our modern dilemma. We really shouldn’t want to try spending a lifetime with someone who can’t appreciate us as we are; social, political and personal views included. And as far as the particular issue of religion, there is a reason why the Bible talks about couples being ‘equally yoked’. If you have a low view of the Catholic Church and ended up falling for a Catholic girl, things would always be edgy, at best. That holds true with any person of firm conviction spiritually. If both of you are not of the same view, the tension will continually resurface and eventually it will take you apart. Good thing to find that out right away, don’t you think?
September 11, 2009 at 12:08 am
I know what you mean Richard about walking on eggshells around modern women about anything.
Spending your life with someone who does not appreciate you as you are is a nightmare, and stressful too. That is why people who don’t find someone who appreciates them as they are are better off alone. The Biblical reference to couples being equally yokes is so true!
Taras
September 11, 2009 at 1:40 am
Taras, Richard, and Mick, you guys have made some interesting points. People here in the States are increasingly polarized, and extremely touchy. As a young person in the South, I grew up in an amazingly integrated community. We all kidded each other incessantly, called a spade a spade, and were in and out of each other’s homes, churches and family events on a daily basis. Of course there were philosophical, and religious differences, but, despite the kidding, we all treated each other with dignity and respect. I am not certain when or why these societal changes have occured. One thing is obvious though, and that is the tendency of all of us to catergorize and group people instead of dealing with people individually and on a more personal basis. It appears to be our nature to define and catergorize, and I guess that tendency is exacerbated by the speed and complexity of life. I imagine books have been written about the development of ideological extremes. All I can say is life is more and more difficult. Good-natured, selfless,kind souls who truly want the best for people and society are as rare as ever. If you find a woman who is interested in what she can bring to you, and not what she can get out of you, grab her and please tell us about it.
September 11, 2009 at 4:38 am
So Sam, where does all of this take us as a people? Are we any better off because we have recognized the problem or are we merely more cynical and uncertain as a result of this awareness? I am still trying to hang on to the belief that romance, marriage, and family are real possibilities for us all, and even more so trying to teach my young daughter those same values still exist which will make it all happen for her one day.
September 12, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Hello Richard,
Thanks for your response. I guess I sound like a broken record(should I say DVD, now?) on this subject now.
I think parents like you are in the best position to teach and influence our populace. I see evidence of it nearly every day in my encounters with people. Those individuals who have or have had strong parental support, and love are generally well-adjusted, positive forces in a world falling apart at the seams. I have high hopes for your daughter because, knowing something about your values and ideals through your posts, I am confident she has a fine mentor. Show me a girl/woman who had a strong, loving father in her life, and I will show you a girl who is more precious than rubies.
Personally, as I have said before, I must try to “see with the good eye” or look for the postives. Otherwise, I would sink in to depression and self-pity. Corny as it sounds, I try to be a good, helpful neighbor, smile and speak to everyone I pass, and generally be a positive force in my own small way. I guess I am a bit too sensitive, a little thin-skinned, so I am easily hurt and can become bitter as a result, but I remain positive because of my positive experiences with people like you and your daughter—-good people in a rather bad world.
September 13, 2009 at 1:02 am
Thanks for the supportive words, Sam. When I feel like I am failing the most there always seems to be someone there to shore up the crumbling self esteem.
The world is a different place now and all of the changes have not been good ones, but you have the right idea. It is certainly easier to find the good in people if you are continually looking for it. We all can get depressed by the insanity we see around us every day, so trying to maintain that positive attitude despite what the world throws at us is the only way to keep from jumping off a bridge.
When I write, I often play devil’s advocate and hopefully remind people to trust common sense. So many of our peers are being sucked in by scammers and no one needs that extra hurt on top of living life alone. When I talk with my friends I usually try to encourage them and tell them that life is not that bad, no matter what trial they are facing at the time. But the hurts are real and we have to learn to deal with them in a healthy way.
You have some great insights and your input here is quite helpful.
September 11, 2009 at 4:40 am
By the way, I think you nailed it when you said, “we all treated each other with dignity and respect”. That is one thing that I see very little of lately. At least on any real, meaningful level.
September 15, 2009 at 5:41 pm
This is a great post with great comments and a great warning to young men. All young men are hung up on looks and realize often too late that underneath the outer shell we are all bags of messy smelly organs. Beauty doesn’t last; people get used to looks and what was amazing once can become nothing later on.
This is why arranged marriages of old time and still practiced in the East worked. They push the young man and young woman to go past their hormonal mis-judgement and immediate whims and fancies. They give stable homes, big families and partners who end up genuinely caring for each other long after the glitz and glamor have faded away.
Buddhists have very good meditation exercises to help us get rid of our projections. If you are feeling overwhelmed by the glamorous appearance of someone, focus a little more closely on what the human body actually is. Imagine this person at three AM with the foulest breath ever, unwashed, smelling, unshaven, unkempt hair (or bald). If you still wish to be around this person then (or be around them from a bit of a distance :)) then they might be someone you genuinely care about. Otherwise you are wasting your time.
Prince IJohn
http://www.honjaku.com
October 8, 2009 at 11:47 pm
It’s not that we’re smelly bags of organs under the skin and bone, it’s the nature of human nature. The weaknesses of the body pale in comparison to the weaknesses of the spirit that torment and bedevil so many people. In a word, without being taught to restrain our darker sides or at least channel them into positive pursuits, human nature is evil, pure and simple. It’s all too easy to start down the path of evil, darkness and worse, but to do the opposite is quite the opposite. The war between Heaven and Hell is constantly and eternally fought in the hearts of every man, woman and child alive right now, and which one wins our for every person depends directly on the choices a person makes.
Taras
September 15, 2009 at 6:58 pm
I am half-Chinese and arranged marriages still go on, although they’re not as common as they used to be (my family is from Singapore; I’m not so sure about the mainland but I understand that the bigger cities and wealthier parts don’t have so many arranged marriages any more either.) Even when the marriage is not an arranged one, it’s still considered important for the couple to be of reasonably equal social standing, education, finances, family background etc. etc. After a certain age it is understood that it’s time for you to get married (men too!) and that’s when people will think about an arranged marriage or asking friends/family/a trusted person to set them up with someone. Obviously there are divorces and some people do stupid things, but society still has certain safeguards to encourage you to make the right decision and not pull a Britney Spears (for want of a more tasteful comparison.) When you believe that marriage/choice of a life partner will have an effect on your community and family as well as you, you’ll be less susceptible to the influence of “lust goggles” 😉
September 15, 2009 at 7:43 pm
I find the whole subject of arranged marriages very interesting. Thanks a lot.
Would you say you agree with them?
I’m not sure where I stand. I can’t imagine my parents choosing someone for me, let alone who they would choose, and I am very happy with the man I found of my own accord. However, I can see the benefits of arranged marriage. But as my culture no longer practises this I don’t have much knowledge to go by.
September 15, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Agree with them – it depends on the individual situation. Marital difficulties aren’t really discussed in public so there’s not much information about how well arranged marriages turn out, and if there is too much pressure being put on one party it’s not nice for them. But arranged marriages are less common than they used to be, and the parents don’t always arrange it – there are professional organisations in some places, or the family can ask someone they trust to be the matchmaker and look for someone suitable. You can be more informal and ask people you know to set you up with someone they think you’ll like, or some people go on group dates/have singles parties to see if anyone will pair up (often with an underlying view to marriage.) It’s not always a good idea but marriage in Chinese culture carries a sense of duty; and I personally think that arranged marriages encourage you to look less at the superficial and more on the qualities that will help the marriage last.
September 15, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Laura,
In a way you have re-emphasized that old Christian marriage guideline about being equally yoked. And really, isn’t it still one of the simplest and most certain ways to avoid a myriad of potential problems? With all that can (and usually does) go wrong in marriage today, I think it makes a lot of sense to seek a mate from your own particular crowd or social group. Hollywood possibly being one clear exception to that concept since those nut jobs fall for whoever they are working with on their next film.
There has always been a standard which kept families from being torn apart from within; that being the desire to pair up the marriage aged children with someone of a common background, beliefs and socio-economic standing. Primarily from religious standpoints, but for many other reasons, too. We can always understand and relate better to someone who shares our same heritage.
In tribal cultures it is rare that leadership classes mate with hunters or field workers. Even when marriages were to members of a different tribe, great consideration was given to social class and financial stability. It was a matter of courtesy as well as respect.
In medieval times the classes were so distinct that you could actually identify people in your own social strata by merely looking at someone’s clothing or footwear. There were no clothing makers who would produce items for commoners and various patterns or colors were often forms of family identification.
But all of this is one of the biggest reasons to exercise extreme caution with regards to the kind of romance we’re discussing on this site. Cultural differences are enormously strong hurdles to overcome in building a life together. For everyone who succeeds in such a marriage there are hundreds who don’t. Age differences, another common topic here, is also a difficult road to travel. While we may say that age is not important, it will be somewhere down the trail. Again, for those who make it work, they are a distinct minority. Economic divisions and earnings discrepancies have created a huge percentage of divorce in recent decades as well.
While many may mock the term ‘equally yoked’ it should be a very serious consideration in any relationship which might lead to marriage. Going into a marriage with similar beliefs can make it much easier to weather the many storms which will arise throughout the years together. The old ways of finding someone your own age, with common interests and from a similar background may seem outdated but the simple proof is in the divorce rates then verses now.
What’s more, regarding arranged marriages, it was quite often that the betrothed children would grow up knowing the person they were destined to marry. With that awareness as a child, while you are open to more diversity and less prone to find fault with others your own age, it was relatively easy for many to build a lifelong bond even before their wedding day came along. The marriage was often a bit anticlimactic for the couple. They knew for so long what lay ahead that there was little reason not to make it work. It was a recipe for generations of large, strong families.
September 15, 2009 at 8:30 pm
There were/still are people in arranged marriages who wouldn’t see the new spouse until the wedding day (“Buying” a bride isn’t legal, but it still goes on) but in that situation it’s just something you would have to get on with. The marriage failing would not be acceptable so the couple had to work together and focus on positive aspects, not nitpick as we so often like to do …
September 16, 2009 at 4:17 am
Arranged marriages in most parts of the East are nothing but family dating services. These come with some great advantages
– You know the person through the family network so this immediately establishes a level of trust
– You are typically matched up based on similar upbringing, education, social values. So there is a greater chance of a fit
– There are reasonably clear rules of courtship and ways to take next steps
– There is a clear idea of what to expect and what people are getting into
So there are no games, no need for pick up lines, no need for seduction techniques and all that nonsense. Most importantly there is no need for ‘that feeling’. The need for ‘that feeling’ is part of the conditioning of Western people, especially the women and turns dating into a hellish nightmare. Romantic love – ‘that feeling’ – is the worst kind of narcissism and the ultimate chimera. It suggests that the relationship is all about you and how you feel. No relationship where people are focussed on this can last too much more than the quick hookup.
Its good to be a little cynical here: relations between men and women were never ever that golden at any time and at the base are always a kind of business relationship. The man trades everything he has in exchange for sex and someone who will build him a nest and be a good mother to the children. The women trades her nest building ability and sex in exchange for someone who will be a good provider and carer especially in those crucial early years of the childs life when the mother needs to focus all her time and attention on the child. This is the only reason men and women come together, everything else is a lie. All culture is a decoration to mask this and make it look good.
This site has a lot of pictures of beautiful russian women on it. Its good this post is here to remind people of what’s important, otherwise one might think this is all about finding hot blonde women.
I have seen a lot of arranged marriages. They typically last forever, long after the love marriages have died. There is plenty of love in arranged marriages but its a different kind of love, much more real. Its the love that comes out of a lifetime spent getting through life together: sharing all the trials, tribulations and joys, building a home, raising children, working, tending to the elderly in the family, and the mutual respect that goes with this shared life.
This below is a good read. This is an Indian arranged-love marriage story of a (now) very famous and successful Indian couple as told by the wife Sudha.
http://www.geocities.com/softwarehero/infosys.html
Now that’s love 🙂
Prince IJohn
http://www.honjaku.com
September 16, 2009 at 1:07 pm
With all due respect, Prince IJohn, I strongly disagree with the idea that marriage has historically been a “business relationship”. I also recoil at the thought of anyone arranging anything for me, much less a marriage.
The Greeks and Hebrews(with help in my opinion) did a very good job of defining the many forms of love, and they all are part of any good marriage. As I sit here thinking about the guys I know around here who have been married for 40-60 years, and the many positive things they say about marriage and love, to a man they all say that they found and still find their wives to be physically attractive. But, there is more. With their wives they have experienced the loss of children, cancer, heart attacks, financial setbacks, the fear of loss when a child is at war abroad, and every other sorry thing that life can throw at us. So, yes, they have voiced their appreciation and amazement at the love that grows with mutual trials,and tribulations as well.
Of course, there are the moments of joy. Like the other night when Mrs. G came into her home exhausted from coaching high school tennis and her husband Bill surprised her with a meal that he had picked up at one of her favorite restaurants. That’s a former New Jersey boy being thoughtful and considerate of his wife, a traditional, thoroughly Southern girl. Where did they meet? At a college. Why are they together? Well, they found each other to be attractive in many ways. They dated and discovered shared values, a mutual faith, and shared goals. They made a commitment(got married), raised three children, and have been a positive force throughout all the years together. I could tell similar stories about a wild and crazy Greek guy named Harry and his lily white Southern bride, or Ted and Jackie, or Ed and Lib or James and Janet and a host of others. The bottom line is that they found each other, made their own decisions and made a go of it, and they would laugh long and hard if anyone told them that they had a “business relationship”. No, what they have is much better, much deeper, and a heck of a lot more exciting than anything like that!
September 16, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Regardless of how or why they met, if two people don’t enjoy being with each other and taking care of each other, then they have just a “business relationship” that is equivalent to being alone.
September 16, 2009 at 4:34 pm
P.S. By “being with each other”, I meant actively engaging with each other and connecting on many emotional (as well as physical)levels, and not just being there (like with coworkers in an office).
September 16, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Hello Sam, John
Thanks for your replies. Well firstly its worth noting life is not that ‘nice’ it does not lend itself well to delicate moral or aesthetic sensibilities.
Yes recoiling at the idea of having something arranged for you, not actually choosing it yourself is very popular these days. Look closely and you will see that everything that this site is bemoaning is wrong with Western life comes out of this kind of recoiling. Western women too have recoiled at the idea of sacrificing for the family and especially a man, giving up their personal choices for the sake of a shared unit, giving up their career choices etc. And its better to be alone than in a relationship where you don’t have ‘that feeling’ is also today’s mantra. Of course most find too late that this is not true but that is another subject.
Aesthetic, romantic ideas have no objective basis. All romantic ideas are generally lies of course, but do serve a useful purpose in that they enable the young man and young woman to go past the intimacy barriers.
One can recoil at anything based on one’s aesthetic preferences. For example others who enjoy the arranged marriage would recoil at the idea of
– placing their own preferences above the preferences of the family and the community
– being focussed on themselves over being focussed on and caring for others
– being slaves to ‘the immediate feeling’
– keeping no loyalty towards people they have known for a long time
– walking out on commitments
And so on and so forth. Look carefully, why is this site all about? Russia is more east than west – and Russian values are these communitarian values. That’s why this site is calling men there is it not?
There is choice made even in the arranged system, and regardless of what label you give it – arranged or love or whatever – it is a choice we all have to make if we wish to live any kind of a life with inner contentment. This choice is the surrender to a larger idea of life. You give up your aesthetic preferences for the requirements of the family and the group. It is a choice to give up choice. You give up your freedom and take up responsibility. Really you ‘give up’ as in give up for good. You don’t hold a thought in your head that I’d like to keep the option of ‘ungiving up’ and all those who keep the option suffer for it.
After giving up your life will never be the same. Of course it will be difficult and involves sacrifice. Who says life has to be easy?
Best
Prince IJohn
http://www.honjaku.com
September 16, 2009 at 6:34 pm
So you are saying that, because life is not always easy or nice, we should all strive to become worse and less rather than better and more?
September 16, 2009 at 7:59 pm
I don’t think anyone is saying to strive for less. We should be motivated to succeed in all we do but the idea that success is somehow automatically attached to physical beauty rather than personal and emotional stability is crazy.
If we would be less selfish and more focused on what we offer instead of what we demand in relationships, everyone would be more satisfied.
The businesslike version of some arranged marriages isn’t that of a mini corporation so much as it is an agreement that within the marriage we must work together as a team to become more prosperous than either of us could be independently. That is a fundamental reason for most of those prearranged marriages and should be a reality in all of our traditional marriages as well.
I think we should all be much more businesslike in our perception of marriage. That does not rule out any commitment to love or any other emotion. It simply places proper weight on the fact that any solid marriage is about the unit, not the individuals. Your needs and desires are fulfilled as a natural part of being committed to the team.
Every player on a World Series winning team gets a ring, not just the guy who pitched the no hitter or the guy that hit the winning home run in the last game. Without teamwork there is no victory.
Why is this so hard to understand?
September 16, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Look carefully. If you wish to strive to better something what you strive to better is not you but something external to you, a larger idea of life. For example a Pastor strives to better the health and well being of his congregation. For most people this is the family. Then whatever you do you do it for the family, as a simple example taking the time to read to your child rather than say honing those abs in the gym.
There was an article here a while back by a woman who had spent her entire youthful life betterring herself – focussing on her career, focussing on all her needs, sleeping with whoever she wanted whenever she wanted, whooping it up with the sister girls in the hip cafes. Now approaching forty she was an utterly broken and devastated woman, spent, looking at the rest of her life alone. She also battled depression for her entire life. This will be the logical outcome for all except maybe 1 in a million who go down this road of self-focus. Having spent her entire life in these narcissistic habits she could not change even if she wanted to.
This narcissism masquerading as romanticism has destroyed the West. It is suprising to see these ideas here on this board but its hard to get rid of conditionings.
So there is room for another warning. If you go to Russia or anywhere else with your romantic narcissism, focussed on yourself while expecting to find a woman who focusses on you you will be dissapointed. The women who come to you will be the opportunists looking for you money and your relationship will then really be only a business relationship. If your interest is the commitment and shared space of the family then you may have a chance.
Prince IJohn
http://www.honjaku.com
September 16, 2009 at 9:35 pm
I am not suggesting that I recoil from sacrificing for the greater good or personal responsibility. Frankly, America was founded on Judeo-Christian precepts, and I subscribe to such a philosophy or I would not live here. Obviously, thousands of others do as well or the freedom we have would not exist.
I guess I am more bullish on people than most, but I am not idealistic or foolishly naive. I see people joyfully putting others before themselves with joy and gladness on a daily basis. Whether it’s a Dad walking around in threadbare clothes so he can afford to buy new ones for his wife and kids, a soldier taking a bullet for a comrade,or a ballplayer doing the unheralded things for the success of the team, it goes on all the time, both here and abroad. The point is that these people are making a choice to do the right thing. They don’t see it as a sacrifice or a burden because they think more highly than that. Why? Because they understand love, and they want to extend it. They wouldn’t have it any other way.
So, criticize all you will. Yeah, Western society catches a lot of flack, but when you need help we morally decaying, immoral souls are the first there, and we do it out of love.
September 16, 2009 at 11:44 pm
Amen to that!
September 16, 2009 at 7:26 pm
Hello Prince IJohn,
Choice, like it or not, is foundational to JudeoChristian beliefs and, thus, a huge part of the fabric of North American society. Personally, I think it is a strength and something to be defended and protected. Though one can link it to the negative, obviously, it is the basis of many positives.
Because most of the people around me make good choices daily, they and our society reap the rewards. The men I mentioned in my last post, and several dozen others, chose to pursue the women that are now their wives, and several have been happily married for over 50 years. Thanks to their parents, teachers and other role models and mentors these men can be trusted to make intelligent, informed decisions on their own. They and I would strongly resist having important decisions, like the choice of a mate, made for us. In fact, thousands of our peers and forefathers died fighting for the very freedom of choice. As a single, never-married man of 48, it is rather silly for me to preach or advise anyone on the subject of marriage. But, I can observe, and I am a great listener, so I relate what I have learned from the successful marriages of those around me. These men never saw the sacrifices they made in marriage as a loss of choice. The decisions they made with their wives reflected their love for each other and their children. Did my friend Coleman drive 50 miles after work each night for three months and sit till daybreak in a hospital room with his dying wife because he felt it was a burden or loss of choice? Absolutely not. After fulfilling his obligations at work, an army would have been needed to keep him from the woman he had loved and supported for 50 years. Yes, he loved her in every sense of the word. He would have died a thousand deaths for her. Did Jim feed, wash and dress his wife who was crippled with MS because he was selfish and cruel? No, he did it with a laugh and a smile because he loved her more than he did himself. Only when her medical needs exceeded his ability to deliver them did he agree to place her in an institution, and he made that God-forsaken place his second home.
The point is that men and women are perfectly capable of making their own decisions, and, by and large, they make good, self-sacrificing ones when push comes to shove. They choose to stay with mates even when better becomes worse, they buy shoes for their kids before they replace their own, they step in front of friends in the line of fire on the battlefield, and they support friends when the rest of the world has turned them aside. Am I idealistic or delusional? No, because what I see is real, and I know people personally that do or have done good things by choice. More of these good people are coming along around the world, too. There’s Richard’s daughter out in the Northwest absorbing her Dad’s lessons, there’s Bella over in the UK making the decision to express her femininity, and live simply each day, and there’s the young girl in Russia striving to see the needs of her community met. Thank the Lord, there’s good people making their own good decisions daily. I pray for their success and happiness.
September 16, 2009 at 10:01 pm
Richard,
My comments on this thread consisted of three sentences. Did you read them?
“We should be motivated to succeed in all we do but the idea that success is somehow automatically attached to physical beauty rather than personal and emotional stability is crazy.”
Since I never said anything like this anywhere, how did you conclude that this was my position? (Attitude is at the top of my list, beauty is at the bottom.)
“If we would be less selfish and more focused on what we offer instead of what we demand in relationships, everyone would be more satisfied.”
So, wouldn’t this follow from my suggestion that enjoying taking care of each other was important to a relationship?
“Your needs and desires are fulfilled as a natural part of being committed to the team.”
Yes, but not any arbitrary team. Otherwise, you could stop and marry the next person walking past you on the street.
If there isn’t an emotional or spiritual or two-souls-becoming-one or however you chose to characterize it basis, then going home will be the same as going to the office, and that just isn’t good enough. There is more to life than “business”, and I already have that.
Just because a process allows relationships to function efficiently doesn’t mean that it is therefore the reason why relationships should exist or why some are successful. And isn’t “relationship as a business” the WW template for marriage?
By the way, sacrifice is giving up something of greater value for something of lesser value, and it doesn’t exist in a loving, and emotionally and physically protective and supportive relationship. When each is putting the other first, both end up being the center of attention and with more than they could have created alone.
September 16, 2009 at 10:56 pm
You know, sometimes this all just gets to be too heavy, and I just want to look at the girls, crank up the music, and eat tomato sandwiches and hotdogs.
September 16, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Well yes, we do tend to take our lives and ideas way too seriously and we have far too high expectations of what life can give us.
If you are too caught up in ‘love’, if you ‘believe’ it too much you will only be disappointed, your actual life will not bear out your beliefs. If you are too focussed on the business side of things you will miss out on some of the joys and pleasures.
Good time for a beer.
Prince IJohn
http://www.honjaku.com
September 16, 2009 at 11:50 pm
I’ll drink to that.
September 17, 2009 at 8:17 pm
M = B2 (marriage equals business squared). There aren’t many business relationships that are more contractual than marriage and on a Business Scale I would say the romantic marriages are more laborious. Most of my dealings start with a wink and a nod.
September 18, 2009 at 4:01 am
“Til death do us part” is one serious business plan.
September 19, 2009 at 8:17 pm
For some reason I’m reminded of a joke I once heard. It’s about a husband and wife who went to see a marriage counselor. When the counselor asked the wife, “what seems to be the problem” the wife answered “he never tells me he loves me” to which the husband replied “that’s not true, I told her I loved her when I married her and when things change I’ll let her know.”
September 18, 2009 at 12:14 am
Boy, I wish someone had taught me at a young age that marriage is more than simply “falling in love”. It would have made things much easier. Instead of wisely choosing a marriage partner with the assistance of trusted family members, my younger, more stubborn self learnt this painful lesson through trial and error. Things like religious beliefs, family values, life philosophies and socioeconomic background make a HUGE difference. Our forefathers had this right.
September 18, 2009 at 1:29 am
I agree with you there Catherine, but incredibly many parents in the West do not prepare their children for this most important of life decisions. That’s why there’s so many people divorced or alone right now.
Taras
September 18, 2009 at 2:50 am
You are right Taras, about parents not preparing their kids, and mostly because the parents of today were already born into this declining social situation. There are hardly any parents left that can even remember when marriage was a life long commitment which required daily effort in order to be successful.
My parents were married in the 1940s and the idea of divorce was mostly for book and movie plots. My mom, who turned 92 today was married once; to the same man, tough old s.o.b. that he was, for 55 years. When my dad died, my mom was, and still is in her mind, married for life. It was never smooth or easy for them either, and especially for her, but where can you find anyone who believes in marriage like that, today?
I’ve seen marriages end over clothes hampers, tooth paste caps and toilet seats. Those people were NEVER in love and they NEVER worked at their marriages. They not only failed to see marriage as a business or a team, they even failed to see marriage as something that included them both.
Most marriages today are ‘lust’ to the isle and ‘what have I done’ till the divorce. We need to help young people today get past this notion that marriage is about ‘them’. “I just want someone to support me, to satisfy me, to complete me”. Me, me, bloody, freakin’ ME. Ya’ just can’t be focused on yourself and be an active participant in someone else’s life at the same time. It’s like trying to ride two bicycles at once. (Pretty cool when it works, but short lived and a hell of a mess when it all falls down)
September 18, 2009 at 12:33 pm
When my cousin was eight or nine and her parents were divorcing, I took her to a meeting with some or other “youth worker” laid on by Social Services. That person said that marriages never JUST break up over toothpaste caps or toilet seats, and arguments over such petty things are just a sign of the deeper problem. If that’s true, dare I suggest that the “problem” might be the couple’s absolute failure to consider any future beyond the initial wave of infatuation?
September 18, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Exactly right, Laura. There are no REAL marriages that would break up over those petty issues.
People get married today to get laid, because they got laid, or so they won’t have to work as hard to get laid.
I’ve seen marriages last for over 30 years when the only reason for that marriage was a pregnancy. The couple “made a mistake” and then tried to make it right by stepping up to the plate and being responsible for their actions. (That sort of thing certainly doesn’t happen any more.) In the long run couples like those just ended up “building” a relationship after the choice to marry “for the kid”. That may be a backward way to face marriage but it is way more mature than marrying someone for lust or in the heat of the momentary fun they’re having together only to walk away pissed off a few years later destroying everyone involved.
Marriage isn’t something people should decide to do some weekend because they seem to be having a good time.
When courtship used to last for years, the marriages lasted forever, in the vast majority of cases. This modern ‘micro wave’ mentality is a dismal failure at best. It takes “time” to fall in love. Love comes from a deep understanding of how well the people serve each other and are being served by each other. There’s hundreds of years of proof to back it up.
It was (again) the totally self centered feminist agenda that is key in the destruction of marriage and family. Me, me, me and never We, Us or Family.
September 18, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Catherine,
I am curious as to why you would even begin dating a man that did not share your faith, and your world view. Were you rebelling in some way or just oblivious to it all?
September 18, 2009 at 5:47 am
Let me share a couple of links
Here is a talk by the aforementioned arranged-love marriage wife Sudha Murthy given at Berkeley. Like all women she spends her life spending her husband’s money. Her husband makes the money running the business creating wealth and thousands of jobs, she spends the money doing philanthrophy, helping the poorest weakest sections of society. A remarkable talk by an extraordinary woman, a wife, mother, professor, philanthropist, writer and much more.
It is not that hard to see what has happened to this country. Here is an article on the feminization of America
http://www.fredoneverything.net/Feminization.shtml
For everything there is what is real, what is true and what feels good. Not everything that is real feels good, and not everything that feels good is true or worth doing. Women generally do tend to care more about what feels good, men more about what is true. A society based on principles and values will look very different than a society based on feelings. Everything has to be in balance. When the masculine energy dominates too much the place becomes too harsh. When the feminine energy dominates then what is real, what works becomes irrelevant in lieu of feelings. One can decide that 2+2 = 4 does not feel good, it feels better if 2+2=5, then one can decide that one will live with what feels better but if its not true then things wont work they way one imagined.
The feminine feeling protective energy is wonderful and necessary for small children who need this protection. It is harmful when applied when the children are grown up and need to go out, take risk and learn what the world is actually like. Only when your lives and actions are in tune with what the reality actually is do you have a chance of building something sustaintable.
Good luck navigating the waters!
Prince IJohn
http://www.honjaku.com
September 18, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Sam to answer your question, I was aware of the differences on some level, but made the mistake that many women make by assuming that he would change into somebody with more congruent ones. Until my early twenties I was confused about my faith and swung from militant atheism to intense curiosity. I had also immigrated to a new country and didn’t have the most stable family life. Adapting was difficult, and the community we were living in didn’t have at the time too many immigrants with whom I share my frustrations about living in such a culturally different place. My first boyfriend was someone who I chose to stay with for three years because he was in a similar situation, and we supported one another emotionally. He was a good, clean cut boy and my best friend, though very different to me.
When I converted to Christianity, my whole life changed for the better. I’m not saying this is the right choice for everybody, but for me it was a great source of comfort and strength. It made me into a better and happier person. As I grew up, our religious and family values diverged. Marrying somebody of similar faith with traditional values, who desired to build a strong and stable family became extremely important to me. When it finally dawned on me that this was an unsustainable relationship, we ended it amicably.
Although this experience has made me into a better and wiser person, I know that the strong presence of my extended family would have guided me down the right path before going off course a few years. They also would have strongly discouraged me from making poor decisions fueled by loneliness and desire for companionship. These strong emotional forces are behind the reason for many of the poor mating decisions in the West. The strong individualism avocated and encouraged by Western culture has culminated to weakening of the social fabric and increased magnitude of loneliness.
On a more personal note, to conclude my story, I am now living with my extended family since a year ago. They truly are a blessing, and in many ways, they are teaching me how to be integrated into a strong community. At times it is difficult, because after being cut loose for five years, you become somewhat socially feral.
Although we do not practice arranged marriages, an aunt and uncle are involved in regulating my relationships by approving or disapproving of them on the basis of marriage compatibility.
September 19, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Hi Catherine,
Thanks so much for taking the time to respond so generously to my question. You made one point about the social fabric and its inherent loneliness that is perhaps not salient or noticeable to the average American. Our celebrated, career obsessed, cosmopolitan population of rugged individualists is at heart a lonely bunch known for making poor decisions concerning relationships. I am thrilled that you have found comfort and strength in what I think is a superior social model. Like I have said before, I am encouraged by what I have heard from young women like you. Many have seen the light, so to speak. I expect you and other like-minded young people to be a strong part of a better future.
Thanks again for a fine response. I would love to hear more! Take care.
September 19, 2009 at 8:09 am
Give me that Russian Girl!
Cool, now, I gotta go,so you best be gettin out of my way, cuz this here dog says so and I don’t want no American Woman!
September 19, 2009 at 10:32 am
So it’s not just American women who are fat, but men as well.
September 19, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Hello Kisha,
I have missed hearing the pointed comments of a true Russian girl.
Though a significant percentage of Americans are overweight and obese, there is no shortage of gorgeous, slender, bright-eyed females. Since I learned that we are perceived as a bunch of slack, hotdog stuffing round people, I have been checking out waist lines everywhere I go. While sitting in the stands, and walking around the grounds at an American football game last week, I checked out several thousand females. I am pleased to report that the overwhelming majority of women I saw were slender, and many were downright gorgeous. Now, I can’t say the same thing about most of the women I see at WalMart, but that’s another story. Someone else will have to report on the condition of men. As for me, when I am out jogging, Kisha, I often throw in an extra lap just at the thought of you. 🙂
September 19, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Hello to you Sam, I hope you come up with the same positive attitude towards American women next time someone here will call them *fat*. I think it’s a right thing to do, to appriciate your own people. Cos I’ve always felt like all american women can’t be as horrible as many of you describe.
And I’m glad I have this wonderful effect on you. I’ve always wanted to help people.
September 19, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Unfortunately, that is for a significant number of men Kisha. What is even worse are the numbers of very fat children, because of the bad diets many Americans live on. The price for that is obesity, diabetes, vascular disorders and cancer. Throw in the horrible eating habits some people have and you have a surefire recipe for a lot of illness and premature death. I wince when I see how much some people eat, because gluttony is called a deadly sin for good reason, starting with the toll it takes on the body. I’m the only one of three children who did not get obese as a child, mainly because I only eat when I’m truly hungry. More people I know are at least somewhat overweight if not downright fat that those who are not.
Taras
September 22, 2009 at 7:09 am
Taras, that’s quite sad what you’re saying. Never understood how it could be so widespread.
September 24, 2009 at 2:57 am
It is, and moreover I think part of the problem is exactly what’s in the food people eat, or what isn’t. Moreover, people just don’t seem to care just how many calories are in that bottle of juice or soda and they chug away not aware of the hundreds of calories just ONE of them contains. That combined with little or no exercise leads to expansion of the waistline alright, like a Sun like star expanding into a red giant star at the end of it’s life. Even pets are often fat here, I’ve seen dogs and cats alike so fat they look like they are refugees from a sausage factory.
Taras
September 19, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Randy Bachman may be old and fat, but obviously by the video he can still kick some butt on stage. Dude still rocks. Not bad for some Canucks just “Taking Care of Business,” truly the comment with the video was more of a statement about attitudes of American Women, but in this case the attitude of American men towards American Women; however, in this instance, the message was delivered by some friends friends from Canada!
September 20, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Yet the issues you raise here are extremely important. It is very tough to date in a world where there is no guarantee that you will be able to create a lasting marriage. A lot of marriages either fail or you have partners cheating on each other. A normal marriage is an exception these days. My parents have been married for decades now, in a monogomous marriage. But it really hurts me to realise that the odds against me having the same are just too big.
September 20, 2009 at 4:51 pm
This is why young women should marry older men. A guy over 35 is less influenced by his hormones and can choose a mate more intelligently.
September 20, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Interestingly enough, my father was 21 when he got married to my mother who was then 28. And they have been monogomous and together the whole time. It does not matter what the age of the man is, it’s his integrity. There are a lot of promiscuous men and cheaters way above 30, not to mention the horrific midlife crisis. Besides, both the testosterone and sperm count drops after the guy reaches 30 years, the quality of the sperm decreases also.
September 20, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Saule,
Not wishing to detract anything from what you’ve said, but in NA today women in the 25 to 40 age group are more than TWICE as likely to cheat in marriage than their male counterparts.
As far as sperm counts and viability studies go, in men over 40, the drop off is so gradual as to be almost undetecable. Men in their mid 70s can still father healthy children, depending much more on the age and general health of the woman.
September 24, 2009 at 3:05 am
Men have a lot to lose if they’re caught cheating, politicians aside. Women on the other hand don’t and they can do whatever they want when it comes to sex, with no stigma attached. In fact, they can and do cheat and then get away with blaming the husband for a choice they and they alone made. The way the courts are rigged against men, a man can cheat and the wife can divorce him and take half of the marital assets, the children and half his paycheck. He can stay faithful but the wife can cheat, divorce him and take half of the marital assets, the children and half his paycheck anyway. With that sort of reality in effect, is it any wonder not only are marriages foundering like a torpedoed ship, men are jumping ship when it comes to marriage? Why do it when this happens all too often or one has to walk on eggshells for the rest of his life? Both men and women have rights but with rights come responsibilities and obligations, with both parties interests being fairly looked after. That does not describe the state of marriage today in the U.S. It’s why I will never marry again in this country, not after the experience I had.
Taras
September 20, 2009 at 10:28 pm
It’s better to have full information:
http://themalebiologicalclock.blogspot.com/
Yea, I’m aware that most folks cheat. Not only in NA, but also in Latvia where I come from. It is considered very normal. Especially, when it comes to men – you always here about how men are ‘naturally polygamous’, the message is almost as if do not even expect the man to be faithful. This makes marriage a rather scary, undesirable prospect. For me at least. Actually, it makes marriage useless.
September 20, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Saule,
I would not dwell on statistics. If you are not in contact with high caliber people who take their marriage vows seriously, perhaps you should seek some out. As I have said many times on this blog, I know many people whose lives contradict everything statistics and periodicals have to say about them and their peers. Remember, there is always the minority, or the remnant, of people doing the right thing. If you are looking for a wife, seek out the exception. She’s out there.
September 20, 2009 at 11:07 pm
I didn’t mean to be overly negative. And of course I do hang around people who are in strong marriages and relationships, even people in my family. But that doesn’t change the fact that the odds of having a happy, successful marriage with a person you love are not that high. And of course I will always keep seeking out the exception. I’m just being realistic.
September 20, 2009 at 11:57 pm
Saule,
Actually, the odds for success for specific groups of people are surprisingly high. I just listened to a presentation that included some stats seldom mentioned. If you have the time, you might take a closer look at the figures broken down into groups and subgroups.
September 20, 2009 at 10:30 pm
p.s. on the men being able to father kids at 70.. most men don’t live that long. And if they do, they need to be nursed themselves. Many men who have already had kids don’t wanna go through that again. I don’t see those couples of older guys with very young women having lots of kids like they should be.,
September 20, 2009 at 10:45 pm
“Women in the 25 to 40 age group are more than TWICE as likely to cheat in marriage than their male counterparts.”
And this I simply do not believe. Can you back it up?
September 20, 2009 at 11:42 pm
Saule,
Here in NA men frequently live to, and past 70 years of age.
In my small, Midwestern town of 4,000 people, a high school friend of mine who is 56 now has a 10 year old sister because his 70 year old father, who married a 38 woman decided to have a baby. Mother, father (who is now 80) and child are all healthy and happy.
And of course there’s Tony Randall who fathered 2 children after 70; one when he was 77 and the other when he was 78. His wife was 27 for the first and 28 for the second. Randall died in 2004 at the age of 84 with his family at his side.
Regarding the women 25 to 40 comment, it was within the past year that I heard that particular statistic quoted on a network news station. I don’t remember who performed the study but I do know enough about what’s going on in my region to have complete belief in the findings. Whether or not you choose to believe it is irrelevant to me.
I understand that there are many differences in such things between your country and mine. I accept the fact that mortality rates and many social norms are specific to any given region. So much of the anguish shared here by NA men over the harsh decline in morals that we see in our everyday life may seem unimaginable to you, but believe me, it is completely normal for us.
Over here, we don’t have the luxury of time in seeking out a quality mate. For you it might be because of shorter life span, but for us it is because we will almost always need 2 ( or even 3 ) marriages to build a family to live out our life with.
To say that the statistics are against us is an enormous understatement. But this is real for us. Not at all enjoyable, but very real.
October 16, 2009 at 12:58 pm
When I worked at a local shipyard, one of my supervisors was old enough to be my dad, and I was in my mid 30’s at the time. He was 60 years old and could scramble up the ladders six, seven decks at a time faster than me. I had an uncle who did hard physical work on his farm every day until his mid 90’s, and he worked his family’s land his whole life. Here a man or woman can be 70 years old and still be active physically and mentally if they took care of their health.
Taras
September 21, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Yea, I’ve heard of specific groups that have a bigger chance of having a more successful marriage.
I agree about the demographic differences between NA and Eastern Europe. Especially in terms of longevity of male life and their health situation. And, yes, there are much more men in NA, even though in certain demographic groups there are even more men in EE than women (younger than 35). There are generally more men in the North. But if one wants to have 3 marriages then, of course, there will be a tremendous shortage of younger women.
I can assure you that there are no major differences between Latvia and Western Europe when it comes to morality. I’ve lived in the States and have always been in close contact with Western men and women. Most of them are liberal, with the exception of certain Americans. Men generally tend to be more promiscuous than women because of a higher sex drive and the fact that they can get away with it. I have found that the American society is very judgmental towards ‘easy’ women, while men are forgiven. This is very different than in Scandinavia, for instance. It’s hard to picture a situation where women are more promiscuous than men (sounds very peculiar). But then what do you expect – just look at what type of women are glorified and desired by most men (girls with looks from a porn mag).
Generally I would say that NA men and Western European men seem a bit more stable/disciplined (which is one of their nicest qualities),
September 22, 2009 at 2:32 pm
That was true to an extent once, but not any more Saule. Even then, men too were stigmatized for extra-marital sexual relations, and sometimes killed for it by the woman’s husband. Women can cheat on their husbands, then divorce him and take away his kids and home too. All with the full blessing and backing of the state. But if an average man were to cheat on his wife here, the wife will get a divorce and take him to the cleaners. Women no longer both to control their sexuality, and act on every whim without consequence, legally or socially that is. Men on the other hand have been turned into criminals just because they want to be a father to their children? How insane is that?
Taras
September 22, 2009 at 6:59 pm
I believe that is and will slowly change Tara. I know for example a man that has custody of his daughter. Of course the woman is allowed to have her daughter visit her. From what I understand no party now can prevent visitation rights. A relative of mine can see his child but the ex-wife by law can not stop him from seeing the child. From what I understand if he worked more covient hours to raise a child and even had a woman to help him he has a high chance of getting custody of his daughter.
September 22, 2009 at 9:22 pm
In the US and Canada each state and province has specific laws governing custody and visitation.
In most areas, the basic rule is “in the best interest of the child” but mothers still have first ‘right’ to custody because of outdated thinking and years of feminist agendas being adopted.
The next ‘level’ down is ‘no parent shall be denied access’ to the child, but that has been so overtly misinterpreted and abused as to be almost a non issue in today’s courts.
I have full custody of my daughter but a ‘joint custodial access’ agreement because I never want my daughter to lose touch with her mother. My wife never even put forth a demand or request for full custody, in part because her substance abuse was at the front of my case for custody. Even without a legal challenge to my custody request, and even with my wife’s documented drug and alcohol situation, the court in BC is required to consider the mother as the primary care giver. That is just how messed up and one sided this issue is in NA today.
There are many men like me who have won custody of their children, but for each who does there are hundreds who not only don’t have custody, but hundreds more who have no access to their children what-so-ever.
September 22, 2009 at 2:33 pm
That was true to an extent once, but not any more Saule. Even then, men too were stigmatized for extra-marital sexual relations, and sometimes killed for it by the woman’s husband. Women can cheat on their husbands, then divorce him and take away his kids and home too. All with the full blessing and backing of the state. But if an average man were to cheat on his wife here, the wife will get a divorce and take him to the cleaners. Women no longer bother to control their sexuality, and act on every whim without consequence, legally or socially that is. Men on the other hand have been turned into criminals just because they want to be a father to their children, let alone approach a woman. How insane is that?
Taras
September 22, 2009 at 5:29 pm
This is spot on. This is because America does not enjoy relative gender equality like Sweden where the paternal rights are observed. Men should have the right to their children because it is not fair that women do all the work of child rearing (while simultaneously working in the public sphere) as long as they don’t use children to revenge the woman.
September 22, 2009 at 5:30 pm
I mean don’t use children to control the woman’s life.
September 22, 2009 at 7:24 pm
This is a huge issue in American and Canadian family courts, finally, that BOTH parents have rights. It has angered and frustrated men here for decades. Modern NA women use their children as bargaining chips in divorce and then after having the fathers all but eliminated from the child’s life; daddy has to pay several times more in maintenance than what it actually costs to raise the children. It works out wonderfully for the welfare mentality of most of these women because it gives them the option, in many cases, to stay home on their ex-husband’s dime. The next natural follow up has very often been that ‘mom’ uses most of the money that comes from the ex for her own wants and whims while the children do without sometimes even basic necessities. The scenario I’m describing plays out hundreds of times each day in NA and there is very little being done to change it.
If there was a natural way for children to be born with only one parent involved, then maybe this wouldn’t be so obviously wrong. But since God designed us to be mothers and fathers then common sense would dictate that children should be raised with both a mother and a father. (In police work we’d call this a clue.)
We all pretty much know how we got to this point but now the objective has to be how do get past it and return to what works. Probably by building marriages with common goals and values, taking time to get to know each other, and all of those other out dated habits and practices which built our society.
When you get stuck it often helps to back up a bit and then move forward. We’re in one of those places right now.
September 23, 2009 at 3:30 am
Divorcing parents often use their own children as weapons against each other. To be capable of this, one would have to be an incredibly vengeful and vindictive person, but time and time again women demonstrate this with particular frequency even though men too can be and are no better. I know this from first hand experience, and the bad taste it left in my mouth is still there 30 year after the fact. However, it’s often but not always the woman who does this. I have no children, but to me it would be unconscionable to use vulnerable children in this way, no matter how bad things are between the parents. Fortunately some can put aside their differences and act in the best interests of their kids, but not nearly often enough. This is what makes divorce so harmful to both children and society, not the divorce itself, but the conflict that often ensues with the children caught in the crossfire with no place to escape. All because a lot of adults forget to act like them.
Taras
September 23, 2009 at 6:46 am
I know another guy in Vancouver that got custody of his son. He said that was a huge battle. Also, for some reason, he got his ex cut out of his son’s life as well…. I’m not sure of the details.
September 23, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Don’t know what sort of ‘feminism’ you are talking about but it is definitely not gender equality. Maybe the men are not given liberal custody rights because of the strong Bible fundamentalism that permeates parts of the American society. Because according to the traditional thinking the child rearing belongs to the mother first and foremost, and the protector and the provider role (over both the woman and children) belongs to the man. That way the men by paying alimony are actually carrying out the role of provider, and the women are protected enough to have and raise children. The woman has to give up a lot to give progeny to men and to raise a child who eventually will be useful to the society – she gives up her bodily attractiveness, her free time, hobbies and career (savings through taxes), patience, energy, etc. A prospect of making a good living. Western kids education costs a lot too. That’s why she is compensated by the alimony.
But it’s understandable why some men are disgruntled. The stigma deters them from enjoying full fatherhood. This is very cruel because it deprives them of fulfilling a fundamental human need. Men are generally perceived as being more independent, self-sufficient, not as emotional.. but in fact, they DO have deep emotional needs. If both sexes actually tried to look at each other as human beings, not just opposite sex, then maybe we wouldn’t have so much hatred as we see on this page. The current situation is neither the fault of ‘feminism’ or ‘machoism’ but it is a failure of the postmodern society to organize fair and harmonious family relations. It is understandable because the demands of the living standard are very, very high and individuals enjoy freedom. Having had most Western women at home with children and as housewives would have dropped the living standard tremendously.
In Europe in the nearest future there is no way of going back to the ‘old, traditional’ family model. Up until recently I thought that the traditional model is gone forever in the whole Western world. I believe the best thing for Europeans at least in the Northern regions would be to take the final step forward and introduce somewhat real gender equality, similar to what they already have to some extent in Scandinavia. This has raised the birthrates and the quality of life for both genders and the children and it would make it easier to withstand the future hardships.
But we don’t know what will happen in other Western countries as the living standard keeps falling. The first observation seems that people will tend to return to the extended family model. People will be naturally pushed together for survival reasons (safety in numbers). Cultivating close relationships might become more important than material independence, consumption and status. It may not be possible in the future to take out loans to purchase fantastic sports cars and bikes and to have multiple mistresses. Many men lose jobs now as the construction and the fundamental industry is shrinking. It’s possible that the banking sector will continue to suffer. The bail out money will not save it. Of course, we don’t know how the biological gender dynamic will play out because the world has changed since the 1950-70s. Are we returning to an industrial or agrarian economy? Or maybe something entirely new is in store?
September 24, 2009 at 12:07 am
You have made some great points but I can’t say as I would agree with some of them. Certainly our opinions differ here on a few items.
While you seem to be implying that the old traditional roles were more functional or even better than what we see today, you also add a bit of the rhetoric which brought down the old system in the first place. The idealistic vision that NA women (via the courts) ever utilized alimony and child support as a means of allowing men to fulfill their role as provider is ridiculous, at best. It is one of those “sounds good on paper” concepts which when put into practice only really served to build higher and stronger walls against fathers being involved in their children’s lives. With time the whole idea has become a cottage industry for NA women allowing them to marry and divorce for pure profit.
The whole statement about how much a woman has to give up to raise a child and why she is compensated by alimony sounds kind of like an episode of Dr. Phil.
Marriage is a sacrifice for both partners. Children are a sacrifice for both partners. Building a family is a sacrifice for both partners. If there is any one thing in life which demands sacrifice it is this process of marriage and family. Neither partner is particularly benefiting more nor is automatically getting screwed more than the other in marriage. It is a give and take proposition where both put their best in to it and each gets what they need out of it. (theoretically, anyhow)
“Don’t know what sort of ‘feminism’ you are talking about but it is definitely not gender equality.”
I’m not sure how or why you are trying to make any connection between feminism and gender equality. The two have never had anything to do with each other that I am aware of. Sure, the Fondas and Steinems of the world used to ‘say’ it was about equality but any intelligent person could see that it never was. It is, and always has been (on this continent anyway) entirely about complete role reversal. And the really sad part is that with all of their screaming and protests, in truth they have only been ‘given’ quota hiring and reverse discrimination as ‘victories’ in their fight, and even that came from the very male egotists that they despise. They have as yet to ‘prove’ anything by it all.
It is very much on the shoulders of feminism (and all of the political correctness that goes with it) that all parody was washed away along with any hope of ever seeing it again. Denying the role of feminism in the destruction of NA marriage and family is like denying that the ocean is wet.
“Maybe the men are not given liberal custody rights because of the strong Bible fundamentalism that permeates parts of the American society.”
I don’t know of men asking for “liberal custody rights” in either the US or Canada, but they would all like to see some semblance of fairness, and Bible fundamentalism has nothing to do with it. This is simply more of the ultra liberal courts ‘playing God’ over the lives of people. Also, to the best of my knowledge as a Christian, fundamental Bible teaching NEVER excludes the father in the process of loving and caring for his children. (The primary Bibles in our house are King James, New American Standard and New International Version.) In fact, from a biblical standpoint, a fair and loving father’s role in guidance and leadership is the cornerstone of family strength. Supplying food and a sense of security are added benefits that come with the package.
All of the Freudian psychobabble of the 70s that led us to ponder and question and doubt our every thought and feeling was a prelude to everyone thinking they need to explain every tiny event in their life, as if the why really matters. Very often there is no more reason for our feelings than to acknowledge the fact that we have them. We love because we can. And in the final analysis, North Americans more than anyone else in the world, have lost any clue as to what true love is. It’s been added to the never ending list of microwaveable emotions which we now base our entire existence upon.
September 24, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Then, what is true love?
September 24, 2009 at 9:58 pm
My rather lengthy reply is still being reviewed prior to posting, I guess.
September 25, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Richard,
Thank you for your intelligent and honest reply.
I got a lot to say but unfortunately I don’t have the time because I have to make sure I pay my bills.
But just to comment on your last quote about Nordic Americans – I think you’re judging yourself too hard. I would like to encourage you not to give up your values so fast. Remember Leif Erikson.
September 25, 2009 at 9:30 pm
To be sure Saule, I haven’t totally tossed in the towel on my values. That is why I have chosen to stay single at a point in my life where I should be enjoying the fruits of my labor and endless days surrounded by family and close friends. I would rather be a single dad without much of an adult social life than to go out and battle the Alpha Female Syndrome for scraps of left over attention. In the US and Canada we White, Healthy American Males (WHAMs) are a dying breed and to actually be one who still believes in romance and chivalry, I am even more of a minority.
September 24, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Laura,
Regardless of a person’s religion or personal philosophy, it is hard to beat the following:
….And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things….(Excerpts from 1 Corinthians chpt. 13)
If a couple could bring a smidgen of love defined in that way to their marriage, I would bet the farm that they would experience a joyful union.
September 24, 2009 at 5:40 pm
That, in a nut shell, is the answer in my world.
September 24, 2009 at 5:58 pm
What Is Love?
After a few years and dozens of in depth discussions with college and career groups, I can say without hesitation that there are not many young NA men and women who know the answer to that question.
Let’s start with what love is not; it is not physical attraction, lust, or ‘chemistry’.
Physical attraction merely means you have recognized something in another person that you, personally find attractive which could be little more than hair, eyes or some body feature. This hardly has anything to do with love.
Lust is the desire to satisfy your own sexual wants, again having nothing what-so-ever to do with love. When you think somebody is hot enough (or hot enough at the moment) to have sex with, all cognizant thoughts are out the window.
And worst of all is this whole chemistry phenomenon and where that comes from is anyone’s guess. In the case of chemistry between two actors in a role; that’s where Oscars come from (i.e. Tracey and Hepburn, Bogey and Becall, etc.) However, modern woman particularly has directly linked hot looks and body to so called chemistry. The most common statement I have seen after reading hundreds of young women’s sample profiles for online dating is: “Chemistry is vital so if there’s no picture in your profile, I won’t respond”. What? No picture equals no chemistry? The very thought of this has created a new depth for the term shallow.
Love is also not getting along well enough to end up in bed after one or two nights out together. If you are professing love for someone within a few weeks or nights of seeing each other, you have no concept of love. It is just that simple. (Please do not pour over all of the cases of “love at first sight” that you personally ‘know’ of.) You have a much better chance of winning a state lottery than you do of finding true, everlasting, life long, love in a time span of less than several months or possibly even years together.
In a simple statistical test of this, the average time of courtship or dating has diminished year by year, decade by decade and generation after generation. Wow, go figure this; the divorce rate has grown in an almost mathematically consistent rate with the decline in courtship. Is this really THAT HARD to figure out?
Other factors include direct family involvement with potential spouses, finding and/or developing common interests, spiritually based pre-marital counseling and more.
Over the past 100 years we have gone from seeing the families of a young couple considering marriage becoming close friends prior to wedding plans being made to, in many cases, the families not even meeting each other until the day of the wedding or some time after. What does that say about the considerations being given to each other’s needs before becoming husband and wife?
Where we used to see people meeting at some event or activity where both are sharing a common interest, we now see meat market bars and internet introductions with preconceived lists of possible likes or dislikes being shared like some sort of horse trade. The process of getting to know one another has become cheapened almost to the level of a hooker and her john making a deal before heading to the hourly rate motel. If you are sure that you’ll “get to know each other as we go” then you are headed for a very short time together. Most people entering relationships like this have more notions of ‘making’ the other person grow to them and their interests rather than learning to grow together in a living relationship. These people see the shortcomings in their potential mate and assume that those bad habits will mysteriously ‘go away’ under the glow of the love provided. My God, what foolishness, yet it happens ALL OF THE TIME in today’s society. You can not change other people. If by some miracle you do, then you must be prepared to live with the inevitable consequence of being resented for it by the person you claim to love.
There’s a Chicago restaurateur that I know who has been married and divorced three times. He has also bought and sold two businesses in the last 15 years. He says the same thing of each wife and of each restaurant he’s been involved with. They all had “great potential”. Just like a fine restaurant which he became totally caught up in for its success, then went in and changed the look, the feel, even the menu but didn’t understand why business fell off.
If you ‘fall in love’ with someone it has to be with the whole package. You can’t just think that you are ‘the one’ who can change him or her into the perfect spouse. Either love them completely and unconditionally or leave them alone and keep looking.
Let me add another factor at this point. When the average age of a couple getting married was between 28 and 32, the marriages lasted around 40 years or more. With an average age at the time of marriage around 20 to 26, the marriages last around 8 to 10 years. Again, I can’t see how this connection is so readily missed. Also, when the average age at marriage was between 14 and 18 marriages lasted until one partner died, but unfortunately the average life span was 58 years back then. There are clear reasons, both emotionally and physically for marriage to be undertaken by people who are mature enough to handle what life throws at them. On average, couples who marry later will live longer, stay married longer and have closer family ties. What is not to like about this scenario? It is exactly what most of us claim to be searching for.
Finally, although maybe most importantly, is the spiritual connection. To simplify matters for those atheists or unbelievers or members of other religious backgrounds; the reasons for being equally yoked go beyond ancient, Judeo-Christian values. There are reams of books, stories, fables, theories and whatever regarding the difference between marriage to or outside of your own family beliefs. It should be a no-brainer but the concept has been all but done away with in modern society. If a significant portion of your growing together as a couple involves disputes or hidden anxiety surrounding core beliefs, then I suggest that you make a close personal relationship with a divorce attorney early in the marriage. You’ll need them sooner or later. The rarity of long marriages consisting of two people from sharply conflicting background values (if they both still hold to those values) is close to that of finding fresh dinosaur eggs. Yes, I suppose it ‘could’ happen and in a very few odd cases somewhere in the world, I’m sure it might have, but I have never heard of any such instances where the marriage has lasted until one partner dies of old age. Again, spare me the ones that you all ‘know of’, okay?
There are many instances where statistics can be skewed or are just not consistent enough to trust. The divorce rates in NA are clearly one exception to that theory. We can see all around us the short term marriages and the considerable disparity of fairness throughout the family courts in NA. If the stats on NA divorce were only half right, it would still be staggering compared to even fifty years ago.
How do we avoid being one of those statistics?
When you meet someone that interests you, step back and do some close evaluation of your thoughts and perceptions. Then some even deeper consideration to you true motives. After deciding to pursue the relationship, pay close attention to the direction that ‘they’ are going. Is it particularly quick? Do you feel any pressure from them or from any of their friends, or from your own friends? Is there any desire on either or both of your parts to shortcut the road to the bedroom? Are you developing any sort of meaningful friendship or making time for activities that do not revolve around purely physical attraction?
Do you love them at this point? No. Hell no! You still don’t know who they are, for God’s sake. And if the two of you are sleeping together after 1, 2 or 3 dates, (here’s where I depart from my core beliefs a little) then have fun. Go for it. Have the best sex you can have, if that’s what you choose to do.
B U T . . . . . . . y o u a r e n o t i n L O V E.
Having great sex at this point is no more an expression of love than buying dinner. In fact it is even less an expression of love than it is simple a release of sexual tension.
Women especially, guard yourself here. Despite the sexual revolution and the modern norms surrounding who is or isn’t responsible for your orgasms, there is a factual, biological connection for you between the physical act of love making and the emotional bond of true love which men rarely share on any measurable level, early in a relationship. Please accept the fact that men and women are wired differently and do not think that this is a flaw or fault by any means. It is a benefit. If women didn’t have this ability genetically sewn into their make up, we men might never become fathers.
Don’t get pissed off guys. It doesn’t mean that we don’t know what love is. In fact, again, because of how we are made, we need that disconnect in order to ever ‘leave the cave’ in search of food. We are not women! Damn good thing, too.
We NEED each other in order to complete our destiny. The propagation of the species is dependant on men and women. The framework of marriage may have changed with the socio-political landscape, but it still takes egg and sperm to continue on.
When we are able to separate the emotional and the physical aspects of coexistence and treat them equally in importance but individually in practice, we can return to loving, life long marriages.
September 25, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Richard,
Always interesting to read you posts, although it makes me a little sad to read more and more of an edge or disillusionment in your tone. You said to spare you anecdotes of love at first sight; well, my love for my husband can’t really be an anecdote, can it, because it’s my living reality. You can tell me that what we felt for each other wasn’t what we say it was, and maybe you’d be right. Regardless, out of whatever it was we experienced, God’s given us a bond that keeps growing sweeter – through all the crap that life has thrown at us in our married years.
Don’t close yourself off to possibility, to romance. Don’t cave yourself in so much that you can’t be vulnerable to love. Without being vulnerable, you can’t love.
September 26, 2009 at 1:38 am
doamna,
I appreciate your insight. It is always good to know what impression I leave with my words.
If you are detecting disillusionment in my writing it is because I want to keep the warning alive for young readers who still hold on to the idealistic impression that love and marriage is where life smoothes out and becomes a well oiled machine.
We all know or encounter people who are convinced that anyone at any time can just glance up and see that one perfect glowing image of romantic bliss waiting to complete their life. (Okay, so maybe they aren’t quite THAT idealistic)
Many young people that I talk with are looking for Miss or Mr. Right and they feel as though they are going to know instantaneously upon seeing them that ‘this is the one’. And like I said regarding everyone sparing me their personal story of perfect love or love at first sight, this is the extremely rare, almost non-existent type of circumstance rather than the everyday norm.
If you are sure in your heart that you knew the instant that you first saw your husband, that he was the one and that you were totally in love with him at that moment, I will respectfully disagree.
And believe me; I do not consider your love and your marriage to be simply an anecdote. You and your husband are apparently among the very few who still understand the effort and commitment involved in marriage. I know this because, as you said, “it’s my living reality” with a lot of emphasis on “living”. Also, “Regardless, out of whatever it was we experienced, God’s given us a bond that keeps growing sweeter – through all the crap that life has thrown at us in our married years” your use of “growing” and “our married years”. You and I may have a different way of expressing what we want to say, but we are definitely on the same page. Make no mistake about it, you are living what the rest of us are searching for.
I have experienced similar feelings and I know now, looking back, that even the one time that it really did happen for me, it was actually only my perception based on the life experience which I had to draw upon at the time. Had she lived, I have no doubt that our feelings would have grown deeper and that our lives would still be connected in a profoundly meaningful way.
Thank you for the advice regarding being open to love. I have always left my emotions out where they can be walked on and have paid dearly for that, yet it seems to have not swayed me from that path. For now I prefer to avoid such pleasantries all together because there are so few women of value to even make the search worth while.
September 25, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Not quite on the subject, but I think many of you will find this survey interesting (and possibly unsurprising). I am willing to bet they won’t come up with the explanation I’m leaning towards…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcus-buckingham/whats-happening-to-womens_b_289511.html
September 25, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Hello Hazel,
This is all news to me. What is the explanation and prescription?
September 25, 2009 at 2:35 pm
One part of the article I question: are men really becoming happier? I’ve read many anti-feminist sites which argue they are, because of “MGTOW” and “game” and goodness knows what else; but I argue that if men were happy in the first place there would be less of a “need” for such things.
September 25, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Laura,
I think that the point about men’s relative happiness, “Men, in contrast, get happier as they get older” has more to do with something that has almost always been the case rather than in actual correlation to the study data Buckingham is presenting here.
Men are creatures of habit and generally speaking, we resist change at almost every opportunity. I think that the overall ‘happiness’ which men acquire with age has to do with becoming entrenched in their routines and having less interruption to the status quo. Add to that the increases in pay that come with career building and seniority on the job, acquisition of perceived wealth, i.e. home, cars, boats and other toys, and an overall sense of stability.
What has seriously eroded this contentment over the past few decades, however, goes hand in hand with Buckingham’s article, that being things like; men who are being displaced in the work force by quota hiring, higher than ever rates of infidelity among women, ever increasing divorce rates and lower NA birth rates. All of the trappings of feminism have become the key points in breaking up stability in marriage and home life, which subsequently destroys careers and that sense of stability and routine which men desire.
As Buckingham goes on to explain, all of the particular benefits and fulfillments for women which were promised by the ‘pioneers’ of women’s lib, and were supposed to automatically appear once this ‘great imbalance was corrected’ have failed to materialize.
To no surprise of many old fashion, Judeo-Christian, family oriented men, the disaster of feminism has played out exactly as they predicted it would.
Women demanded equality but settled for a quota system which is ultimately more demeaning than what they had to begin with. They demanded the positions and are now angry about the heart attacks, stress, depression and lack of fulfillment which comes with those positions. All of these things which, by the way, men already knew of and warned of as ‘coming with the territory’.
There is no shock or wonder for me or many other men in the statistics quoted by Buckingham. My only surprise is that anyone is actually still trying to get the point across.
The women who believe they are basking in some sort of triumph are actually seeing life through eyes blurred by excessive alcohol consumption and pathological submission to anti-depressants. I am saddened and heart broken by what they call victory. What’s more, I am equally disheartened by the men who once stood willingly on the front lines, taking whatever flak life threw at them in order to protect their families from emotional destruction.
Am I talking about everyone? No. Am I over generalizing? I don’t think so. Statistics speak in averages. They are not pin pointing each and every specific high and low end of any spectrum. What Buckingham’s article and many other people have said is that the trend is real and it is not good news. The task before us all now becomes, what are we going to do about it? Shall we smugly ignore the data as some of the more devout feminists will suggest? Or call it all propaganda and stand in defiance of yet another clear message of the failure of this philosophy?
I think women stand at one of the most important junctures in history. This is an opportunity to back off from the rhetoric and to show some maturity and dignity. It is time to be as bold about reclaiming their femininity as they were about denouncing it 40 years ago.
September 25, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Hazel,
You’re right about Buckingham’s article being “unsurprising” as I have been telling this basic tale for several years. His findings are clearly apparent in the day to day interaction with women from every social and economic stratum that I encounter.
Did you also read past the article and see the equally clear expressions of denial in many of the women commenting? It is also characteristic of today’s women to be quite defensive when viewing anything which in any way at all challenges their idealistic perception of ‘conquering the male dominated world’.
But when will we work together and seek out the key to using this information to bring back the balance that we all desire?
It has to start with women themselves. They have to admit that this ‘victory’ was simply too costly and then they must reclaim their femininity.
If I go to a restaurant and try a type of food and don’t like it, rather than asking for it every time I go out, I stop ordering it. If I go to a movie that I find offensive, I won’t keep watching it under the delusion that it may get better some day. And when I have made job choices in my career which failed to meet my needs or which failed to fulfill me, I left for something better.
It may be time for the modern woman to become more open minded about romance, family and career. Maybe its time to stop the ultra competitiveness for some imaginary dominance of the genders. It just may be time for women to act like women.
September 25, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Excellent posts, Richard.
Ironically, I was just reading the latest issue of FORTUNE’s list of America’s most powerful(fulfilled?) women. From Archer Daniels Midland to Pepsico, women have reached the top. Despite the fact that we have made great strides in achieving gender and racial equality/equal opportunity, it sounds like fulfillment is still elusive for many.
I think what we have is a human problem and not a mere “gender problem”. Our global economy, and the “too big to fail” corporations that dominate our lives have stolen the soul of Main Street, destroyed the backbone of our communities and sold the world a big lie. Economic systems have always rested on an unstable, turbulent foundation, but, ironically, as individuals have continued to base more and more of their personal happiness on their roles and success in such systems, the systems have become more unstable, more turbulent, and more depersonalized.
Several years ago I had a conversation with an elderly woman whose family had known mine since the 1890s. This woman and her husband had enjoyed a long tenure of success at a prestigious university. Their lives were filled with scientific conferences, global travel, and the acclaim that follows such folks. Though productive in the most basic sense of the word, and certainly strong contributors to the betterment of society, this woman, not given to sentimentality, spoke of she and her husband’s mutual lack of fulfillment, and a longing for the fulfillment and happiness she knew as a child in the rural South. As a child, she enjoyed the large evening meals with her parents, siblings, extended family and even neighbors. She spoke of animated conversations around a large table, story telling, community harvests, hard work, and a communal spirit. The inevitable hardships brought on by a host of things were always met with the united front of family and community. Not surprisingly, they were poor, but never thought of themselves as such. What they had, they earned, shared and were thankful for. Maybe there is a lesson in her longing. I, for one, think so.
September 25, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Sam,
I totally agree with you comments about the economy and how this mega complex of corporate giants has sucked the life blood out of so many in search of prosperity.
It has always seemed to me that with the freedom that our system promises, there is an inevitable price to pay socially. Its as if we have been holding a ravenous tiger as a house pet and somewhere along the line we forgot that it was really a wild beast. Once it has bitten us, it has acquired a taste for the flesh of its keeper.
The story you’ve relayed about the family friend is quite moving. You’ve wonderfully stated the value in that air of simplicity which I recall very well from my childhood. All of the things about extended family around the dinner table and neighbors and friends sitting in the same light, sharing the joy and fellowship. Most of all for me was the feeling of unity that you mentioned which existed there at that time in our history. There was no fear or insecurity present then.
While I don’t see us returning to that warm, nurturing setting anytime soon, I think it is important for all who know what it was like to continually express the sentiment to anyone and everyone who will listen.
Thank you for reviving the memory.
September 27, 2009 at 5:04 pm
I agree with the advice given to the young women about not being so accesible sexually. Today men have a strange attitude of entitlement, they take the woman’s body for granted and think they can have access to it whenever they want. So women have to be very careful here and especially try to abstain from drinking alcohol when they’re around men.
It’s great that you guys make a reference to the economy, because it is in fact the economy and the high Western living standard and not feminism that is the root of your disgruntlement. You would never have been able to accrue such wealth without the women being in the labor market. Maybe some exceptional males, but not nearly all or most men. You would never have your generous pensions without women working and paying taxes. If women had stayed at home, men would have had to work longer hours without many social benefits that you enjoy now (or even the high salaries). It is proved that women do the majority of the work in this world, while men hold most money. Of course, some of the money is given back to the wives and children but the majority of the money is sitll kept by the men. So that they can buy all their boats, cars, etc.
The fact that the economy is so screwed up can also be attributed to the selfishness of men. All the big companies and banks are all lead by greedy men. There are hardly any women at the very top level where all the billionaires are because they don’t even let women go there. Women are stuck with all the nasty low paid jobs like secretary, nurse, etc. Very few CEOs with benefits and bonuses. But it will not last forever.
And you don’t have to lose your family. You can always enjoy extended family even if you live an urban lifestyle with a good paying job. You work during the week and then on the weekends everyone comes together, cooks, watches hockey or works in the garden. That way you preserve your social support and tranquility.
And on the happiness.. I remember this article. First of all, it’s hard to actually define what happiness is. One woman’s happiness may not suit another woman. The higher the living standards and expectations, the lesser the chances that you will actually fulfill them all – hence the so called unhappiness. The women are unhappy because of the double burden that is still there. Of the many roles that they have to carry out and be good at. The woman is expected to be both the breadwinner and a mother and a housemaid. You should do well at the university, always be sexy and look good, be a good wife and a good mother. The man is only expected to be the breadwinner, he is still mostly judged by how much money he makes. It is easier to make money than to birth and rear a child and ‘stay young forever’. Men who take up women’s roles are still frowned upon. This is not a fair situation, more is expected of women than men, hence the unhappiness because of the injustice, no wonder they feel anxious and defensive. The women are also unhappy because they have invested a lot but haven’t received much in return. Their value drops as they grow older (well, most men’s value drops too when they get older, but women are still judged much more harshly). Yet they gave a lot – they paid the taxes and they raised the kids. What they get in return for this is much less than they deserve. Mothers are undervalued by our society. The world is also much tougher on the women, as men get away with many things while women can’t. It’s like – you contribute as much as a man to the society, plus you raise the kids, but you still don’t get the same privileges and the status that men enjoy just because they are male. This is true in most parts of the Western world, fortunately, it’s not so bad in Scandinavia at least, so there are thankfully normal societies where women can feel comfortable.
September 28, 2009 at 2:53 pm
This writing by Saule sounds like an apology for feminism…
Sorry, I”m not buying into the whole ‘women are oppressed’ deal.
The facts stand to companies run by women fail at a much greater rate than companies run by men. And that is even with all the grants and special provisions in the legal system to prevent that…
Companies that have a lot of women with degrees in middle and upper management Also fail at a much greater rate because of all the ‘help programs’ and ‘sexual sensitivity’, and ‘worker’s benefits’ plans that they force to be put in place. GM is a prime example. Over 3/4 of the price of a new vehicle from GM is cost of the middle management and their ‘programs’.
In every great empire, women’s rights, or actions like feminism have preceded the fall of the empire, and a brutal power shift happens. Barbarians over run the land. In almost all cases, the social programs, benefits, and other money hungry projects that have no lasting physical value, but demanded by women cause the country to leave the gold standard for money, and issue paper currency backed by nothing but a promise to pay. Usually, the empire falls within 50 years.
The whole ‘kinder, gentler society”, make the people weak, and unable to withstand the hardships that help them become strong and dare greatly.
The economic boom that was accredited to ‘women going to work’ was less because of that, and more because of all the easy loans, and second, third and forth mortgages people were taking to buy what they did not need, and buying things (toys) that had no value after purchase. They returned nothing, and only cost money….
Women that complain about looking good had better have a wake up call…. It’s their looks that attract a man to talk to them first. Personality has a lot less to do with the initial attraction… If the man doesn’t like their looks, why would the man talk to them in the first place?? It’s simple common sense…
As for men losing their family, it’s quite common in north America for women to get restraining orders against the father to prevent him from coming near his children. They claim some imagined abuse. Many divorce lawyers coach women to do that so that the women get a better settlement, and the lawyer gets paid more. The whole staying in the neighborhood to raise your kids is usually a far away dream for many men, as they can’t come within 75 meters of their ex-wife or kids….
September 28, 2009 at 3:07 pm
“Many divorce lawyers coach women to do that so that the women get a better settlement, and the lawyer gets paid more.”
That is why lawyers, especially those involved in divorce and family law , are despised by many American men, this one included.
Taras
September 28, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Hello Wolverine,
I realize this thread may be off topic, but I decided to respond anyway.
I don’t know beans about feminism, but I have been a self-employed businessman for 21 years now, and I’ll have to say that some of the finest business people I have encountered are women. When it comes to sizing up potential renters, collecting past due accounts, saving to purchase depreciable assets and a host of other things, I have known several women who were second to none. I know several men who are multimillionaires now because they had smart wives who partnered with them in their business endeavors. Many, many times, when I have spent time around those folks, I have wished I had a shrewd wife working with me, and holding down the home front. I can assure you that, though they are all true women, those gals were anything but soft and liberal when it came to business and a dollar!
On the subject of the economic meltdown, those ridiculous loans were made because it was in the interest of the lender to make them. The near failure of Wachovia Corp., which cost my Mom around $1.5 million, can be attributed to the company’s rush to put mortgages on the books in order to securitize them and make millions in fees in the process. They sold those securitized mortgages to people all over the world, and the rating agencies assured the buyers that the trash was all AAA. They also “farmed out” a lot of their mortgage lending to brokers who were paid a commission for each mortgage sold. When you are getting 1-5% per mortgage sold and you are not lending your money, there’s not much incentive to discourage unqualified customers from taking them on.
In better days, people that lent money, like my late father, had some skin in the game, and cared about their customers. Many times lenders would advise people on the borderline of qualification to be more conservative, and they would recommend alternatives. I have laughed about it many times since, but when I was a small boy, my distant cousin Blair refused to lend his friend, Sam, the local postmaster, enough money to complete his first home. The compromise resulted in Sam building the basement, and covering what would eventually be the first floor in roofing material. His family lived in the basement until they could safely borrow sufficient funds to build the remainder of the house. Blair, an experienced banker, had his company’s and Sam’s interest at heart.
Well, so much for economics. I hope I did not bore a bunch of pretty Russian girls with all my stories. I have got to get back to work, and pay some bills. If you know any shrewd Russian girls that want to help out, let me know. Generally two minds are better than one, and I need all the help I can get.
September 28, 2009 at 9:47 pm
I don’t have the time to delve into all the negative things you say about women. Except – can you give any numbers and explanations behind those why female run companies fail. Could this be because women give more money to kids?
At least here in Northern Europe female run businesses have done quite well.
The other thing – the gold standard. Was it a woman who decided to remove the currency from the gold standard? As far as I recall, women were never involved in those decisions back then.
I don’t have time to read most of your crap, but a simple saying – before you accuse me, take a look at yourself. Women never created the global financial crisis. If you ever wanna discuss this in a normal way, change your tone.
September 29, 2009 at 12:02 am
Hello Saule,
In the last twenty-five years it has been virtually impossible for highly paid professionals, businessmen and women, and the self-employed to keep their jobs and maintain a good balance between time spent working and time spent with family here in the USA. Because of work, families are dispersed across the country and the world as well. It is not my place to make a judgement about what career one chooses, how ambitious one is, or what sacrifices are appropriate. The fact remains that if one works in a professional position, 60 to 80 hour weeks are not uncommon. The impact on families is obvious. The demands of the work place affect and effect men and women, and boys and girls without discrimination.
I appreciate all the comments here regardless of whether I agree with them or not. Luckily, I haven’t been exposed to the horrors of a divorce and the battles that surround the aftermath. My friends and their wives speak in terms of we and us, not I, I, and me, me. That’s rare these days but it’s real, and still a possibility for everyone. A true marital partnership is a joyous thing to observe. I do know that!
September 29, 2009 at 4:57 am
Saule,
That was an excellent strawman argument. Excellent marker of a liberal university education… I see you’re doing the same thing to me…
Your admiration of the Scandinavian feminist movement is very interesting… yet it seems that the negatives of this are lost on you. I expect that of a feminist apologist…
When I was in scandinavia, I spent most of my time in the not so touristy places. W as sitting in a cafe. Across the room was a girl complaining to no end about how her bf was not treating her like a lady. He wasn’t opening doors for her, he wasn’t helping her carry stuff, he didn’t pay for things, etc. Generally, the way a so called traditional lady would want to be treated…
Yet, in the next sentance, she was mad that he was taking some of the masculine roles that she wanted. Certain decision making, etc. At that point, I started to tune her out. It was disgusting to the greatest degree…..
The point is, she couldn’t make up her mind whether she wanted to be a lady or a man… No wonder guys there don’t act like men. They’re completely emascualted by the education system….
As for why the companies run by women in North America fail at a great rate, it’s quite simple really. Greed and waste come into play in a major way…
Greed is a major part of life here. Women get greedy. They also in almost all cases lack upper management discipline, no matter what education they have. Mismanagement of resources is a common cause. All women companies here almost without exception end up being massive catfights on a continual basis, and so the company goes broke from the lack of work being done.
The companies that are run by women here that seem to succeed are usually ones with low management such as coffee shops, cafes, and companies that get government contracts… The ones with the government contracts are wasteful beyond belief, but don’t fail as the government keeps bailing them out. Companies that I talk about usually have little to do with kids, and so are not a consideration…
As for the gold standard, leaving it is a banker’s wet dream. BUT, I suppose that you have absolutely no idea of the events that surrounded that….
Women had just been granted the right to vote, and the major money powers of the world have just caused a massive bank crash. The federal reserve act was on the table without the popular support to pass it before the election. The politicians promised security with the passage of this act… The women voted for it… Women’s primary concern being security, they voted in droves for the act that promised security… Later, when the topic of not allowing anyone to be turned down for a loan came up, many men opposed it, most women, who were spoiled by dreams of being princesses voted for the politicians that promised it…. In essence, women are responsible for it…. They seem to care more about the bigger house, and the cabin, etc., for status. That is who they pandered to to get support.
Now, we have a decaying road system, etc, and the Obamanation’s plan was to create jobs to repair that system. Nationa Organization of Women (NOW) got involved. They said that women woudl be left out of these kind of jobs, and we must build ‘human bridges’ instead of physical bridges… So, in the end, about 70% of the ‘stimulus’ money went to programs that only create more bureaucracy, and more paper pushing. It gave nothing of any lasting use…. Money spent on useless studies…. Like how to help women compete better in the marketplace, and why there are fewer women in upper management… Oh, and a study about how various kinds of women orgasm…. WASTE…. All of it….
As for my tone, better be glad the GL mods this forum quite tightly. I doubt you’d stand up to me if the gloves came off…. I have little patience for irrational people, especially ones that value feelings over fact…. As I have seen, you are one of these types.
September 29, 2009 at 5:34 am
Sam,
I have a certain anger about feminism. Please understand that I didn’t say all women are bad, that all women are worthless, etc. There is a sense of entitlement in the women a meet and interact with that I call the princess syndrome…. They don’t want to work as hard as the men, and they want to spend time gossiping about others while on the boss’ dime.
I won’t say that women are worthless though… I admit, some are very good at sales, collections, accounting, etc. But, I have not found one that I cannot bend and mold to my will when I want to buy something, etc… I also know 4 ‘top dog’ female collection agents that are afraid to talk to me…. They call, and ask for me, I ask them who’s calling, they hang up….
Just to be clear on a point, I know that not all women are feminists, and those that aren’t, I generally refer to as ladies.
Let me tell you a story that might explain my anger against feminism….
A guy I used to work with driving truck was divorced, and for some reason, the judge gave his ex wife a very high alimony. (had something to do with her being disabled) This guy was lucky if he had more than $500 left on his check at the end of the month. He didn’t have a house. He lived all the time in his truck, even if he wasn’t working. He didn’t have his own vehicle. He hardly had enough to eat by the end of the month…. Often times, I would give him some money to help him out. He and I ran together, so I knew what he was up to at all times…. Except when he was in the shower….
His ex didn’t work, didn’t try to work, didn’t want to do anything, except complain, drink booze, smoke, and call him a no good so and so, etc…
She was a waste of air in my opinion…
Anyways, one day, he asked to borrow $100. So, I just gave it to him. I didn’t expect to get it back, and wasn’t worried… I usually made 3 times that in a day, so not a big deal. 3 hours later, he comes back, and wakes me up. He gives me back my $100.
Ok, whatever….. I went back to sleep… The next day, he gives me another $100….
ok, this is wierd…. Whatever…
To make a long story short, he was good at counting cards in blackjack, and had used my $100 to make himself about $1400. He paid me back for every meal with interest…. $100 at a time. In the mean time, he was stashing money in offshore bank accounts. He did this until he thought he had enough to just live off the interest. Then he just left the country. He asked me to drop him off at the airport one day in houston. I never saw or heard from him again…
Once his ex missed a payment, and was upset, she found out somewhere that I had dropped him off at the airport, and tried to SUE me for lost income…
I defended myself, and she lost the case. 3 times….
This is the kind of behavior that I see in many feminists that turns me off of them.
Many divorced women refuse to work so that their payments are higher. In some places, the ex wife can make it so that the ex husband can’t remarry, as that would reduce their alimony payments… That happened to another guy I worked with loosely.
Now, as for the lady’s part in the husband becoming successful… That’s an interesting topic. Napoleon Hill wrote some about it in his masterpiece ‘the 16 laws of success’. The woman plays a vital role in helping him become wealthy and successful… It has to do with revitalizing certain energy types through sexual contact… As well as emotional support, etc., etc.
But, even more easily, she can break him, and cause him much hardship but not helping him recharge that energy. Mr hill wrote that he found without an exception that the most successful and powerful people that became that for themselves, have a highly sexed nature….
Around here, I hear common complaint that women use lack of sex as a weapon. or a punishment…. some complain that they are lucky if they have sex once a month…. The wife complains that he’s not doing this or that, not realizing that she’s half the problem, and if she’d be willing to fix her half, she’d get more of what she wants… It’s the law of retaliation….
Back to the original topic. You said that you knew women that were better at certain jobs that most men… Are you singling out the women??? My answer to your questions is that very few women are strong and high caliber leaders…. It’s a much rarer trait in a woman than in a man… Exceptions to the rule do happen though…
I do know a shrewd Russian girl with a double masters in business and politics… Anything is available for a price….
October 8, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Wolverine, I don’t really understand why are refering to feminists in the respect of women with princess syndrome? They are not feminists, but more of a product of consumer society and distorted outdated gender roles. Could you please elaborate on how femenism can produce spoilt greedy spongers of women?
October 8, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Kisha,
Please pardon my chiming in on your question to wolverine.
In NA these days we are living daily with the possibly irreversible damage done by the feminist movement. A great part of that resulting mindset is what most of us refer to here as an entitlement mentality. What that boils down to in it’s simplest terms would be women thinking that just because they were born a female, they are automatically entitled to TAKE whatever they want, whether it was ever offered to them or not, whether it was ever earned by them in any way or not and even whether they have any need for it or not.
If feminism were not a complete lie from start to finish, then modern NA women would be highly offended by the idea that they are either receiving leftovers and handouts or that they can not achieve anything based on their abilities but rather must rely purely on their gender to get what they want. Any intelligent human being should be offended by such a degrading system. In fact many upward mobile minorities refuse the government freebies in order to prove their worth in a fair and open environment. It is only the massive lower middle class members of these minorities and of women who like the idea of getting everything without effort. They are bottom feeders, con artists and just plain criminals who lie, cheat and steal to keep from earning their way in life.
Making the connection between this state of mind and the ‘princess syndrome’ is certainly no great leap. The spoiled little rich girl who has never had anything that didn’t come from daddy’s wallet is custom made to slide right into a relationship where she assumes that everything that is put in front of her belongs first and foremost to her and her alone. Even in a case where she is married and working outside the home she assumes that she can defy her marriage vows, and nature itself but still expects to be given a house, alimony, child support and whatever else her lawyer can get her.
Feminism did not necessarily create the princess syndrome but it built it into a new, more destructive version of it’s former self.
October 9, 2009 at 12:13 am
Kisha,
Richard said it better that I could ever have said it…
October 9, 2009 at 6:36 pm
wow thanks, Richard!
It’s just shameful how a *Belief in the social, political, and economical equality of the sexes* has lost its core idea and transformed into something so strangely messed up.
September 28, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Q. Why are lawyer jokes not funny???
A. Because lawyers don’t have a sense of humor, and to the rest of the people, they’re true….
September 28, 2009 at 6:01 pm
When I read Saule’s last post, this morning around 3am, I had been writing for most of the afternoon and evening. At first I started to skim over it, then thought, “What the hell?” and went back to give it a closer look.
I thought I was reading something by Oprah or Dr. Phil. Had I not been so drained by a day of work, I would have kept hammering the keys then but decided instead to get a few hours of sleep before giving this adequate thought.
Well, “WHAT THE HELL?”
For now I will skip over Saule’s opening paragraph and get straight to,
“It’s great that you guys make a reference to the economy, because it is in fact the economy and the high Western living standard and not feminism that is the root of your disgruntlement.”
I’m not sure how to even begin to address a statement that is so far off track as this. A high living standard is more to blame for men being ‘disgruntled’ by modern NA women than feminism. Wrong!
The entitlement mentality of Marxist communism which was the very root of the feminist movement is EXACTLY what’s to blame for the demise of character in NA women and subsequently the demise of marriage and family stability on this continent. It is ALL about feminism, Saule, not the struggling economy.
The current world economic distress is a RESULT of that departure from traditional values and it was brought on by the pioneers of the feminist movement who TOLD women that they were oppressed. Women in upper management is the RESULT of the feminist agenda with its demand for quota hiring and ‘reverse discrimination’. Corporate weakness and collapse are RESULTS of feminism on Wall Street. Putting housewives and soccer moms in prominent positions of government has led to an overall weakening of our nations and their infrastructure and that has placed us in the spot we now know.
It was only when the male work force was depleted to fight in WWII that the shift became necessary to temporarily maintain the status quo. That is when the communist doctrine met up with the new empowerment of feminists and set us on this course toward the slippery slope.
North America is breaking down from within and it is because of the constant pull of the feminist agenda to replace men at every juncture. There are extremely frightening statistics building now regarding the population demographics world wide. Many parts of Europe have already fallen below ‘national sustainability’ because of declining birth rates among specific social and economic groups. Non Judeo-Christian religious orders from around the world are mandating that their people become deeply sensitive to their population mandates, some of which include domination of the planet by sheer numbers and the decline of stability in NA families is thee golden ring that they are most anxious to acquire. You can talk about small isolationist regions like Scandinavia all you’d like but it is the NA continent that will allow socio-political upheaval to take place.
“The fact that the economy is so screwed up can also be attributed to the selfishness of men.”
It is greed and lust for power that causes any economy to collapse and it is the empowerment of women and the intertwining of the genders within the competitive battlefield of the corporate and political arenas which erode a country’s moral fabric, and that is what will ultimately destroy them.
Play a board game like Monopoly sometime with some men and women that you know. Watch the tone of play. You will witness the defining difference between the genders with regards to business and politics. The goal of most men is to succeed while the goal of most women is to make others fail. There is a HUGE difference. The cut throat nature of women in such situations is born out of generations of misperceptions and misrepresentations of what it takes to survive in the business world rather than what it takes to actually succeed. While success in its truest form does not need to leave a trail of bodies in its wake, survival of the fittest does. The greatest businessmen of all time have been enormously philanthropic throughout their careers yet the same sense of giving back is rare in women reaching such positions of wealth and power. Believe me, the nurturing mother is NOT the successful business woman or career politician.
(gentle reminder here : YES , I know there are exceptions, but that only serves to prove the rule)
As far as how you have attacked the findings on happiness in women I must say, “wake up”. The oppressed housewife, struggling to feel appreciated or the hard working but constantly overlooked female office worker are as outdated as bell bottom jeans and love beads. You simply CAN NOT sing that song forever. With rare exceptions, there are more opportunities for women in every level of the workforce than ever before. (much more than are available for men) Those opportunities have been forced on the business world by legislated mandates and are constantly being upheld in the ultra liberal (run by women) courts. So when you speak of relative happiness for women in NA today, give me a freakin’ break. They wanted it all and now they have it all. All of the stress, all of the anxiety, all of the heart attacks and all of the alcoholism. Modern woman has made her bed and now she bitches about having to sleep in it.
Furthermore, women’s value doesn’t drop as they get older nearly as much as they devalue themselves. They chose substance abuse and infidelity because ‘they have a right to’. The cheapen themselves then ask why no one wants to be with them. They demand that men find them attractive while they curse men for being born.
Modern NA women have made choices, Saule. If they are unsatisfied, unfulfilled or “un” whatever, it is because they CHOSE to be that way.
The world is NOT tougher on women, Saule. The world is tougher on whiners and cry babies.
Mothers are NOT undervalued by the world. Mothers are the reason we all still exist. I’m sorry if you don’t think we have enough parades and celebrations for them. Special events and acknowledgements for women and mothers outnumber such things done for men by about 5 to 1, or more. Spare me your tears for the oppression of NA women today as I have eyes to see and I chose to see the reality of what feminism has done to permanently destroy MY nation.
I’m happy that you think that Scandinavia is such an oasis for the down trodden women of the world. Do you mind if we send ALL of our NA feminazis there?
September 29, 2009 at 5:42 am
That’s a good analysis…. Also, many women fail because of Waste. I would appreciate your comments on my posts above…
September 30, 2009 at 7:19 am
I think a lot of the things you’ve pointed out are right on the money, especially regarding how some divorced women avoid getting jobs because it cuts down on their support checks and also regarding guys who have to pay out so much that they can’t even afford an apartment. We both know some of those guys. I know one Boeing worker who lives in the partially finished basement of a friend and uses a shared monthly bus pass to get to work whenever he can borrow it. His income is not that bad but his alimony and child support are astronomical.
Guys like us who see this sort of injustice are easily frustrated when we hear anybody defend the women who play the system this way because deep down inside we know that it could be us living in the vehicle.
Gaining a certain level of bitterness toward women who perpetrate such cruelty may not be the right answer but it sure is understandable. My own anger over the situation springs up when anybody tells me how much they ‘know’ about the other side of the whole thing even though they have never been through any of it. And even more so when some very young person talks about how wrong I am because of something they heard in their sociology class or some ‘women’s studies’ course they’ve taken.
I think it’s great that you don’t pull punches on how some of this stuff get’s to you. I feel the same way. If we don’t make every effort to explain the reality of this stuff, we will never have a chance of reversing any of it. Also, you said something about seeing a wrong and ignoring it makes you part of the problem. I totally agree. A Christian businessman I know quite well says, “All it will take for evil to win out is if enough good men (people) do nothing”. We have an obligation to spread the word and if it fails to accomplish our objective, it won’t be for lack of trying.
There was something else you’ve brought up which I can really relate to. It had to do with soul searching and rethinking many of your beliefs. I think that is a great exercise and one which we should all do more often.
My time of inner searching came after the separation and I was looking at the real possibility of raising my daughter alone. For over a year I spent all of my alone time wondering if I had what it takes. In business I tried to keep everything upbeat but away from the meetings and training sessions I was seriously concerned about keeping everything going.
Keep on sharing your thoughts and ideas and stay true to who you are.
September 28, 2009 at 11:20 pm
Unhappiness starts when expectations clash with reality. From K through college women are filled with lies and led to believe they are in every way equal with men. Then they become dejected when they finally realize they are truly the lesser vessel.
September 29, 2009 at 12:28 am
If happiness is the objective, women must lower their expectations and be content (submission works). Otherwise, welcome to my world where I don’t smile much because my ideals are constantly conflicting with certainty. However, here’s the catch… I don’t care – happiness has never been my ambition.
September 29, 2009 at 11:40 am
More often than not I’ve observed the pursuit of happiness to be destructive. One woman seemed to have everything she wanted; a beautiful family, a husband who was a leader in the church and a good provider, a great big home in the suburbs, etc. Then one day she decided to abandon everything and pursue art. Another woman didn’t have everything she wanted. Her husband was a good man but his income was less than adequate. Consequently, other women in the church who “counseled” her told her that if her husband wasn’t meeting her financial expectations it was grounds for divorce. She has since remarried and has an enormous diamond ring on her finger. Both of these women had one thing in common – their decisions were based on a Happiness Barometer which is exactly why women shouldn’t be in leadership or positions of authority.
September 29, 2009 at 5:40 pm
I don’t think women really want equality. To illustrate my point every year there is a triathlon contested in my town and two athletes get paid $250,000 each. One of these athletes finishes first while the other comes in around one hundredth place twenty minutes later. N.O.W. why do athletes who don’t win get paid as if they won? Don’t get me wrong I’m all for equality… equal pay for EQUAL PERFORMANCE. Yet there seems to be a group of under performers who demand the payout to be symmetrical. Those who push for equality want to pick-and-choose the things they want to be equal and out of this two systems have emerged. I’ve always felt I was one of the athletes who gutted it out and finished just under everyone in the first group who in a sense “gets paid” only to discover there another batch of first, second, third, forth place finishers that will arrive… oh… 20 MINUTES FROM NOW. This is not equality – this is entitlement. Is equality what women really want? Be careful they might get what they push for.
September 30, 2009 at 1:44 pm
It is written that the love of money is the root of all evil. This is to say the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. You don’t have to have a lot of money in order to love money. There seems to be an idea that it was somehow those at the top who caused the financial meltdown. I would suggest that people who were buying homes and living lifestyles they couldn’t afford were much more culpable. I wouldn’t even call this a meltdown – most people have never worked hard enough to retire. It’s really their own fault for having faith in financial gurus and thinking 20% or more return on investments is somehow honest. No one complained when things looked up. It’s only when everything turned south that the blame game began. This reminds me of a business card I was helping a financial planner design. He was brainstorming for a slogan and without really thinking, the first thing out of his mouth was “GIVE US YOUR MONEY MORONS”… and the cycle continues.
October 1, 2009 at 2:25 am
Mick,
Consumers are certainly culpable, but not all banks participated in the subprime madness and they are reaping the benefits of good management today. Check out BB&T in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and First Citizens in Raleigh, North Carolina. Several years ago, before bankers lost their heads, the president of BB&T wrote a now famous letter to the employees of the company and told them in strong terms that they would continue their conservative lending practices and warned them of the disaster to come. The Holding family that controls First Citizens stayed the conservative course as well. The former president of another small(one billion assets) bank in our area is credited for steering his company around the nightmare as well. He joins my friends and me at lunch from time to time, and I asked him if the gov’t pressured them to make substandard loans. His response was that no one ever held a gun to our heads, and that we managed our bank as we saw fit.
That’s the bottom line. Banks held the purse strings, and their liberal policies have come back to bite them, and us unfortunately.
I am confident that the well-managed banks have a few thrifty Russian girls in the ranks somewhere. 🙂
October 1, 2009 at 4:04 am
I don’t know if all banks were being forced to make those kinds of loans, but I know some were….
October 3, 2009 at 3:23 am
Here’s a link to the B.S. that’s occurring on college campuses titled “Indoctrinate U”. The videos which are very informative are in 10 parts and last over an hour but well worth the time. Enjoy.
My favorite line is “What most faculty want is for students to validate their pathetic life experiences. If we were secure, we would have different jobs.”
If you can’t do… teach and if you can’t teach… preach(indoctrinate).
September 29, 2009 at 10:16 am
It’s really interesting to see Scandinavia being used as an example here… Certainly, it is one of the regions in the world with the greatest gender equality (although there is still much to be done), and at the same time Denmark is ranked happiest country on earth survey after survey. And you know what, that corresponds pretty well with what I see in my everyday life. There different reasons for this, some of which have nothing to do with feminism.
Perhaps that will change with my generation. Hopefully not, but we’ll see.
Also, I am left thinking that some of you might have a slightly skewed picture about what feminism means here and how it is talked about. In contrast to what many people seem to think the situation isn’t necessarily the same in Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Norway, for instance, is the only Scandinavian country ruled by a Labour party (re-elected last week). Denmark has had a liberal/conservative government since 2001, Sweden since 2006. Norway is the only one of the three countries to have a quota system for women in leadership positions and are, from what I’ve heard, having so much trouble finding qualified women to fill the quotas that they are now “importing” Danish women. Sweden and Norway have criminalized the customers of prostitutes, Denmark hasn’t (and hopefully won’t).
There is a lot of discussion about feminism here. Not everybody loves it. A lot of the same arguments that are being made on this site are made in Danish mainstream media. There is a book out next week called “The Day I Found Out I Was A Victim” arguing that women aren’t victims of society. And there is a greater realization in general that many times the victims are our men and boys.
So, in short, I feel that Scandinavia (or Denmark at leats) isn’t quite the example feminists and antifeminists alike would like it to be…
September 29, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Hello Wolverine,
I guess to a great degree we are a product of our experiences. Though I have lived in several states, I have spent most of my time in North Carolina, mostly around the people of my choosing. I have virtually no exposure to popular culture outside of sports and politics because I don’t watch television or read pop culture articles in newspapers and periodicals. Also, I work 6 days a week, and sometimes on Sunday afternoons nine months of the year.
Frankly, I have been blown away by the experiences many men on this site have had, and saddened by how it has affected them. It’s difficult for me to comprehend the constant pitting of genders against each other, and all the vitriol because it’s foreign to me. I am thankful that I have been surrounded by people with old-fashioned values who look at marriage as a sacred institution, and women as treasure.
I don’t see the gender specific weaknesses you have seen and experienced. I do see human nature at work in the general population, and it is not a pretty sight. From my vantage point, men and women share equally in the bad and ugly traits, ills and habits of condescension, disrespect, envy, jealousy, immorality, unjust anger, impatience, and intolerance. The Christian faith is highly unpopular these days, but my faith has formed my world view, and I love what my relationship with God has done for my outlook on life. I will go to my grave treating women as complete and full equals. I will always strive to treat both men and women with dignity and respect. I will always try to support men and women I encounter in their worthy endeavors. I fully understand the dissatisfaction people have with religion, and even their hate of it, but we can surely find common ground in the so called fruits of the Spirit. They include: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Hopefully, if I can exhibit some of those qualities, at least some of the time, I will earn your respect.
September 30, 2009 at 3:24 am
Sam,
I have no axe to grind with you. And I have no quarrel with you. Neither do I wish a quarrel…
As I have come to learn, if you are a bystander, and do nothing to stop the wrongs you see, you are actually for the wrong by proxy…. That is why I have intolerance…. Tolerance for wrong is not a character trait found in my Bible.
The whole thing about equality really doesn’t add up… If everyone is truly equal, it means that everyone is exactly the same…. Then if everyone was equal, they’d all drive Mercedes cars, play Rachmaninoff on Steinway pianos, all eat squid and hunan noodles, and all live in houses built exactly the same, and with exactly the same kind of furniture and arranged the same way…. We’d all work the same jobs, so we’d starve because no one was catching the squid we ate, and the place would stink because no one would be there to fix the toilet….
I’m sure you get my drift…. No two people are equal or the same. but like one of those ancient mosiacs, everyone’s differences are part of a much larger and more beautiful picture…
I grew up in a Christian home. I was taught tolerance, love, etc. in a Christian school. I know most Christian’s beliefs just as well as they do. I’m not bitter. I just began to find out that when they were challenged, they had no basis for their belief other than that’s what so and so told them, and that person had heard it from so and so, etc…
I began to realize, at least in my case, people ascribed things to being Christian that weren’t to be found anywhere in the bible….
Then again, I did start using pre King James translations for research… They turned out to be very different in some areas from the KJV. Especially in the areas of money, and the authority of men… That’s another very long story.
You are fortunate to not have seen the side of life I saw while driving truck for a living… The one story I gave an outline of was the most extreme example, but in the comapny I worked for, there were 30 men. 23 were divorced, and most paid so much alimony that they couldn’t afford rent on a house. They lived in their trucks. Some of them were skimping meals fairly consistently, so they could afford to eat the whole month… I have seen both sides of the coin. I have seen the good and the bad. The problem is, there doesn’t seem to be a middle ground present in this area… There seems to be the good and the ugly. Bad doesn’t exist…
I do not try to get angry, even if it’s justified.
Before anyone accuses me of not looking at myself before I say anything, I did that, and a lot of it. I spent almost 8 months writing down every belief I thought I had, and tried to find the root for that reason, and then decide if it was justified to keep as a belief… I wound up discarding about 70% of my former beliefs… I could not justify discarding my belief that feminism and the state that supports it were pure evil…
If you’re still in North Carolina, you might want to check out the Ashville area churches for recently immigrated eastern European girls…. A friend of mine volunteers to help new immigrants there to find work, get a place to live, etc…
The gender specific weakness you mentioned is not just limited to women. Men get it too, but it’s much more prevalent in women…My ex gf talked about having it, and said that she had to try very hard to overcome it, and to keep on top of it… There are women that overcome it, and become great, and there are many men that succumb to it…. It has to do with the way the brain is wired…
September 30, 2009 at 4:21 am
Hello Wolverine,
Thanks for the advice and civility. You have an interesting background and perspective.
When I speak of equality between individuals, regardless of race, gender, creed, or socioeconomic status, I am saying that I believe each person has enormous and equal value and should have equal opportunity. Now, if a person doesn’t share my Christian faith, and believes that humans are biological accidents with no logical purpose, I will agree that supporting the idea and belief that each person is enormously valuable is going to be a difficult, if not impossible, thing to do.
Speaking of the faith, I have more questions than answers. I admire your introspection, and the efforts you have made to analyze your beliefs. In all seriousness, I don’t know the first thing about feminism. I do know that if I had a daughter, that I would hope that she had every opportunity to pursue her own path.
September 30, 2009 at 6:13 am
I hope you understand that I never said to take opportunity away from females. I never meant that. I meant that they shouldn’t be given opportunities that they don’t earn based on quotas.
A very interesting friend that I have put me up to this exercise. It took about 8 months to complete. But that exercise will never be truly complete. Every time you realize another core belief you didn’t analyze before, you will do it. know. You will remember the process you used to solidify that idea. When you didn’t do that process, you will know automatically….
All the answers you are looking for are there… You just have to start writing the questions down and looking for the root answer…..
I bet if you started asking people at random off the street what they believed and why, not one man in 10,000 could give you a real answer… They don’t even know what they believe, much less why…. They act like sheep… No reason for the way they act other than “the other guy does that”. Eventually things just go in a circle. Everyone following the tail of the one in front. Sheep just walking in a circle. No wonder things don’t change….
Once you know what you believe, and why you believe it, it will give you a power that few people will ever know. To begin with, knowing yourself will give you a major boost in confidence….
Every person is born with equal potential. People CHOOSE to limit their potential. They DECIDE to do things that make the fail…. They SEE failure as a end rather than a course correction…. They BELIEVE that they aren’t capable of doing X, Y, and Z. The BELIEVE the they can’t, and so it’s a self fulfilling prophesy…
May I recommend that you read Napoleon Hill’s books series called “The Laws of Success in 16 Lessons”. Also listen to and read everything by a man named Bob Proctor. It will be well worth your time. I’m not saying to take everything there on blind faith. But listen and try to find ideas that you can use….
Bob Proctor has a very good lesson on relationships in his Freedom Series…..
Napoloen Hill will talk about many laws of success that are being violated by the feminist movement that will be their downfall….
October 1, 2009 at 2:27 am
Wolverine,
I’ve enjoyed reading your comments here, and I find your 8-month search to be very similar to my 6-year one. I think you’re right. It doesn’t end – nor would I want it to.
Where I want to go with this little post will be a decided derailment, but with apologies, I’d like to continue…
Central to my 6-year ‘catalouging of beliefs’ is the nature of God and the validity of religion(s). I would be very, very interested if you would elaborate on your research into pre-KJV translations and the differences you found there. A subject I’ve been pondering most recently is what amount of tampering has occured with what people are taught to see as ‘gospel truth’? What is the current difference between what we read about God, and what the writers of these books actually experienced of God? How much of it is political-social structuring (perhaps beginning as early as the Mosaic accounts), and how much is actually the record of an experience with Diety?
October 1, 2009 at 4:34 am
Doamna…
If you want to read the pre KJV translations of the bible, you have to understand Middle english…. Most people today couldn’t understand it.. At some point when I have time to go through the whole thing, I’ll send you some results.
I don’t own a copy of any of them, and have to rely on the generosity of a friend that has one…
I’m wary of buying a new copy as they are ‘corrected’… Paranoid, I know…
Interesting that the books are in quite a different order…
So, I need to buy my own… $21,000 later…
October 1, 2009 at 4:18 pm
In most concordances and from most Bible scholars along with the majority of institutes of Bible study, it seems that the stories of the teachings of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament are consistently translated quite well. However, from what I’ve been told the bulk of the questionable translations came about primarily when the King James Version was commissioned. As I understand it, it was through King James and political pressure from the Pope at that time, that many specific pieces, and mostly from the Old Testament, were translated in a way that was ‘favorable’ to those in power; particularly with regards to the Catholic Church.
The closest I have ever come to learning about some of these discrepancies was through a friend who was taught Hebrew as a child and carries a very old version of the Bible written in that language. His daily Bible is a NIV but he compares the two versions and often points out where some items are clearly a poor translation at best.
But something that I have found in recent years is that even among various vintages, printings and publishers of King James Bibles there are subtle changes in wording. It was especially clear in very old versions (1930s to 50s) compared to more recent ones. The process of ‘updating’ bits of language can actually water down some of the meanings or change them all together. Our old family Bible was printed in 1916 and there are passages in there which are clearly different from today’s versions.
Just from my study it still gets back to spending more time involved in reading and applying your own discernment to the version you choose that will lead to the best understanding of the message. Which isn’t to say that we should all quit looking for the best translation of the ancient Hebrew that we can get our hands on. I sure wish I knew where to find the most accurate and true account of what the apostles were trying to tell us. Currently I use a bunch to try balancing the translations. The NIV is the popular one in most of my circles, followed by the King James, the New American Standard and the New King James. I find that any version which showed up originally after the late 50s is probably filled with political correctness and consequently of less value as far as being an accurate translation. It’s probably safe to say that Christ was not politically correct, so I have little use for that mindset in studying my spiritual life.
Can anyone add some insight to the tone of Christianity among the average younger and middle aged Russian people? All I have heard is about the strength of the Russian Orthodox Church and the primary Catholic beliefs. Is there any sort of evangelical movement in the FSU these days? How involved are the young people in any spiritual endeavors? Is it similar throughout the region or are there distinct pockets of church growth?
wolverine,
Do you know of any modern printings of Middle Ages versions of the King James Bible? It seems like a great concept to reprint a version word for word as it was in the day just as a study guide. Most of us will never own an original book of any kind from that time period, much less a Bible from then. But I would love a reprint as long as none of the wording was changed.
October 1, 2009 at 7:13 pm
There was a company that had made a version of a few of the bibles that were photocopies of the original texts that had been unbound for that purpose, or were being repaired…
There is a copy of the tydale new testament on ebay right now that was done like that…
You’r right in yoru analysis of the translations. The geneva bible was purely translated by scholars from the true ancient texts of greek, hebrew, and aramaic…. Not copies of those texts that were made later by the RCC. Who knows of those later copies were even true copies, or if they were altered to suit the RCC’s aims…
Anyways, I must get back to work. I will try to post more on this tonight..
October 2, 2009 at 12:10 am
Thanks, Wolverine.
I doubt if I have the patience to teach myself Middle English though! I have made some interesting discoveries reading the Romanian version with which I’m trying to supplement my fluency in Romanian. From what I understand, it was translated anonymously in the early 17th century from Byzantine manuscripts. And there are a few differences that my poor Romanian skills can pick out. Nice ones – I like them 🙂
It will be good to read the book without influence from the British empire.
I certainly would love to hear more, though, about what you’ve found!
Sam:
I am an American girl, although every new person I meet thinks I’m from their choice of European country. A little embarrasing when people don’t believe I’m from the same country as them. It’s my husband who’s from East Europe. And let me tell you all, if you ever get a chance to be a guest in an East European home, be prepared for a welcome, courteous warmth, and food beyond your imagination! If you ever get a chance to be a member of an East European family, throw yourself into it – you just might find more love there than you thought possible!
And I couldn’t possibly presume to begin to ‘share’ my thoughts on the ‘infinite nature of God’! Where would I begin, and what drivel might I spew! No, I would prefer a conversation much more than an exposition.
My website is locked. I have moments of wishing to share along with other moments of need to be secret. Maybe one day I’ll feel free to open it again, but not now.
October 2, 2009 at 3:26 am
I learned middle english in school… Makes it easier for me…
I have a friend that worked on the latest version of the NIV. He told me it wasn’t even close to accurate, and that most english speaking people will have to at best get along with a shoddy translation where the basic message just makes it through.
He told me that the alteration was deliberate, but didn’t elaborate further…
September 29, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Usually I don’t talk to misogynists, but just a few final remarks. Nothing wrong with university education as far as I’m concerned. Not a fan of either Oprah or Dr Phil.
I didn’t see any proof or facts about how women run businesses tend to fail more. The biggest failures that we see in the world today, both states and businesses, are run 99% by men. This is a fact, it is evident to everyone. There are no females at any of the high decision making posts that concern the US or world finances, so how dare you blame women for the financial crisis. The men were striving for supreme status. Partly to get the best women, supposedly.. it has to be added though, that it’s a very small minority of men. We also see men who were extremely overvalued in terms of their salaries and the result they delivered. Some of the money was indeed spent on women and children but not all.
There can be normal societies where both genders are equally respected and there doesn’t have to be a ‘downfall of a civilization because it got too feminized’. Just because there were more masculine societies in the past that degenerated eventually, doesn’t mean you cannot have balanced societies. It just requires brains, respect and willingness. Even though it doesn’t matter anymore, because the world is heading for ruin and it is the patriarchy that ruined it. It is sad to see that because many men are suffering from this. I’m not saying it’s the men’s fault as many women supported the patriarchy too. You might think it’s the post-modern ideas and lifestyles and the free world. But whilst we did have the liberal markets and women’s employment, very few women were ever a part of the decision making process in Washington and Wallstreet. Most decisions were and are in fact made by a few extremely greedy males. It is really unfortunate. Maybe it’s even irrelevant making the point about sexes here..
Another misconception I read here is the belief that the old system (pre1970s) was better for women. Yes, it was good for some women as it is a much more stable system, but many women suffered from it as well and not all benefited from it.
Why is everyone throwing in feminism here, when my original point was about gender equality. It doesn’t seem that the NA has that (maybe to some extent). The point is exactly the economy and not feminism, because just like someone already said – it is unrealistic to have a full time professional job and be a perfect mom/dad. The reason the West has such a high living standard is because EVERYONE works (outside the home), both men and women. If women didn’t work, the West would not have such a high living standard. Strained family relations or alternated family relations (divorces, single households, etc) are side effects of the high Western living standard. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Work takes time and puts a strain on women too. Imagine that you showed up for work one day and all the female employees had stayed at home with the kids as perfect housewives. Administrative assistant, janitor, nurse, accountant, sales person, waitress, that low level manager that you described so demeaningly… And this goes back to the ‘unhappiness’ study which Richard said a lot about but missed the main point, e.g., the reason of ‘unhappiness’ – the double burden or the second shift. Let’s not deny that women still to this day, even while being fully employed, do most of the housework and childrearing. To say that they asked for it is to completely misunderstand what gender equality is about. It is about fairness. It is not fair to push all the work on the female. The modern woman equips two genders – male (provider) and female (nurturer). Yet she doesn’t get the credit for doing both. Certainly doesn’t get the status of the male even though she does serve as a provider. Ok, for the sake of fairness, it can be said that the West has gone far in this aspect but it’s not near complete equality.
Speaking of the high living standard… it is driven too much by consumption. There is too much stuff that is not needed. The West will have to give up a considerable part of its consumption and living standard, both men and women. Then the relationship will change. But it does not mean the situation will favor a particular gender.
Another root of ‘unhappiness’ is the incredible beauty standards and expectations towards the women these days. It was not like that even in the 1980s. Where ever that came from, I have no idea, Maybe it has to do with that same consumption.
Of course, women are devalued as they age! This is a well known fact. This very blog is an example of it. And to be honest, seeing everything that goes along with it and especially seeing the attitudes of some of the older men towards older women… really doesn’t give an incentive to get married. Yea, a person can devalue themselves by substance abuse and infidelity, but don’t men drink or cheat? Oh right the double standard. Well, sorry, the young women of today will not abide by that double standard.
The Scandinavian girl who was mentioned wanting both equality and special treatment. Yea, there are some girls like that in Scandinavia (but more in Latvia and I assume Russia too). Because it is a part of education in Scandinavia to explain how equality works, for instance, they work a lot on eliminating double standards. Also, Scandinavians are famous for splitting their checks. And this is normal and fine, as long as women get paid the same. The girl that was described wants her cake and eat it too and that’s not fair. On the other side you have these same guys – they want the girl/woman to work, pay her bills and buy her own cosmetics and clothes, yet they want her to be the perfect housewife and to be perfectly lady like. You cannot be perfectly lady like (timid, soft, submissive) if you have to fight hard at work to make a living. And speaking of the Scandinavian men, they are fantastic.. polite, kind, respectful above all. But NA men are nice too..
Anyway, there is no point in blaming the other gender.. it can actually work out harmoniously. It’s just sad how much misconception there is. It would be better if there was an either/or situation: either the old, traditional model or real equality.
September 30, 2009 at 1:32 am
Saule,
I do hope you realize that you are speaking in generalities. American society is extremely complex socially, politically and economically, and you are doing a great disservice to many of us by speaking so broadly. When you say that older women and mothers are devalued in Western/American society, I say gather your information outside of Fifth Avenue advertising agencies, and Hollywood because that is simply not the case in mainline America. I have lived in Ohio, Massachusetts, Virginia, Georgia, North Carolina, and Louisiana, and I am here to tell you that my experience with middle America is broad and deep.
It would also serve you well to pick up a copy of FORTUNE magazine, or THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. As you will learn quickly, American women are now the majority in our colleges and universities, and the administrative ranks at corporations are full of women from top to bottom. I do hope you noticed that our most recent addition to the Supreme Court is neither young nor pretty, but she received a pretty warm welcome at the ballpark last week. The same could be said for a certain economic advisor to the President, and the Secretary of State.
I will agree that North American men are nice, too. 🙂 That’s what my girlfriends tell me anyway.
October 3, 2009 at 8:24 pm
+1
September 29, 2009 at 5:27 pm
p.s. And mothers ARE undervalued in our society. We don’t see mothers on covers of magazines and it is not motherly females that are put on the pedestal and praised by the media. It is the very young, super beautiful female without stretchmarks, etc. Desirable and a potential mother, yes, but NOT a mother. Actually, as soon as she actually becomes a mother, she leaves the stage and is not put on the pedestal anymore. The point is that pure sexiness is valued and appreciated much higher than the motherly qualities.
September 29, 2009 at 5:31 pm
“And speaking of the Scandinavian men, they are fantastic.. polite, kind, respectful above all.”
Definitely agree with this!
October 3, 2009 at 2:05 am
Hey Hazel,
I haven’t been to your site lately. How would you describe/summarize your time in Russia? Were you able to get outside of Moscow and mix with folks in smaller communities?
September 29, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Wolverine,
Just wondering, which Scandinavian language is it you speak?
September 29, 2009 at 7:45 pm
She was complaining in English for some unknown reason. It was a Cafe in Central area of Valby….
I only speak a little Russian and German…. I don’t read or write either….
September 29, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Saule,
I am a contemporary activist and writer. My daily diet includes many publications such as newspapers, lifestyle periodicals, and other media venues. I write thoughts, perceptions and opinions based on life experience and the knowledge which is available to us all throughout the modern, information saturated world. Unlike many loud voices in the crowd, I chose to study those things I wish to write about in order to speak intelligently on the subject. My emotions are supported by some level of intellect (I hope) and by research, not egotistical retaliation.
You speak of “facts” and then make a statement like;
“The biggest failures that we see in the world today, both states and businesses, are run 99% by men”.
Other than being wrong, you have only stated your opinion. If it is a “fact” then please site a study, a poll, a survey, or something that you derive your “facts” from. Maybe give us a list of the Fortune 500 companies that you know of which have experienced corporate failure over the past 5 years and then tell us how many do NOT have women in their corporate executive structure. You are not only wrong, you are horribly wrong. There are women in almost every executive board room in North America and they have been in there for many years. They sit in high level decision making positions every day and they share the blame for every bit of the crisis that modern companies are dealing with today. It would be sheer ignorance to think that these women are some sort of 1% club that is in no way culpable for disasters such as the sub prime mortgage fiasco.
In the early 80s I took a civil service exam to maybe work at the post office. My G.S.R. test score was 88% and hiring was scheduled to go as low as 68%. I was a synch to get hired, right? In the Seattle office where I applied, 12 people were hired ahead of me with lower scores and one of them with a G.S.R score of 64%. Of those 12 people, 5 were women and the rest were divided up between minorities, handicapped and wounded veterans. One was still learning to speak English and was hired as a mail sorter. I didn’t even make the potential hiring list for over a year. Quota hiring requirements put 5 women who scored below me and 7 other less qualified people on the job before me. Please spare me the misinformed opinions about who should be running the show.
“There can be normal societies where both genders are equally respected and there doesn’t have to be a ‘downfall of a civilization because it got too feminized’”
If the genders are equally respected, does that mean that jobs are divided equally between them? That is not respect at all. That’s just more entitlement thinking and it has nothing what-so-ever to do with respect. Also, if it was equality based, how would there be any sort of over feminization? That makes no sense.
And while you seem to be demeaning and implicating a patriarchal society for all of its woes, in reality it was only when that patriarchy was challenged and subverted that all of these issues ever came into being. It looks as if you are saying that the first few thousand years were some kind of failed experiment which has finally played out in the last half century. I can’t imagine being so removed from reality as that.
Regarding the “misconception” of women being better off prior to the 1970s, THEY WERE. Overall, women were treated with greater respect for their role in marriage and family 50 years ago than they are today. That isn’t even a close contest. Wives were respected for choosing to be wives and mothers were respected for choosing to be mothers and working wives and mothers like my mom and the rest of the women of her generation were respected for putting their family first and then taking on a different role as the needs arose.
You have continually referred to ‘high living standard’ when you should be saying greed and have stated it as some kind of male character flaw. Believe it or not greed is in NO WAY gender specific. It is greed which motivates leaders of business and politics and that is more evident in most of the women of those areas than it is for many of the men. Higher living standards are the result of the industrial and technological revolutions more than anything else. Wasteful, overly conspicuous consumption is a by product of those increased living standards, and are brought on by more entitlement thinking. Keeping up with the Jones’ because ‘we can afford it’ when in fact they can not. So in this regard, you are right. There is way too much ‘stuff’ that is unnecessary and we are all guilty of having it. But with the freedom to excel there is the chance for excessiveness. Neither of us have the right to tell someone how far they can push themselves or how well they are to reward themselves for that effort. Freedom should be controlled by responsibility. We know that life doesn’t always work that way.
In your post script about undervalued mothers, I’d like to suggest that you broaden your social circles and your scope of reading material. The mothers I know are not undervalued by their families, friends or communities. What’s more, the magazines I see every day have many mothers on the covers and some of those magazines are entirely about motherhood and femininity.
Consider this; fashion models are not representative of women in general. Everyone knows that. Secondly, fashion magazines are not representative of womanhood’s beliefs or status in life. Thirdly, and most importantly, look at who the writers, editors and publishers are of the magazines that glorify these unrealistic representations of what women should strive to be like. They are almost all women, Saule. Women are telling women that this is what they should be like. Men’s magazines may fantasize about perfect bodies and flawless skin, but it is women who are preaching that gospel. If you want to see high level executives who are women, THAT is a multi-billion dollar industry entirely dedicated to and controlled almost entirely by women.
You also said;
“Nothing wrong with university education as far as I’m concerned”.
My question would be; who ever said there was? Education for education’s sake, or for an expressed purpose such as a career or whatever the reason is wonderful. Why would anyone say anything different? However, if you spend half of your adult life securing college degrees and then lack the common sense to put that knowledge gained to some reasonable use, I say you are a fool at best. I have met many well educated and well intended people who can not articulate a cohesive thought. I have met college educated people who don’t vote but bitch about politicians who abuse their power. I have met people with college degrees that can’t hold a real job past their probationary period. And still I applaud young people who chose to stay in college while deciding on a career path simply because there is no need to limit one’s acquisition of knowledge just because they haven’t figured out what they want to do for a living.
But nobody need ever wave a degree in my face and build themselves up to me because they are ‘educated’ while telling me that the world is in the toilet because women have never had a fair shake in life. That is the battle cry of a whining feminist if ever I’ve heard one.
Ultra liberalism and feminism are joined at the hip, make no mistake about it, and it is that very same ultra liberal block of voters, that is primarily made up of minority groups, working women and third generation welfare families and their entitlement mentality who can wear the guilt for our current situation.
“They” are the voters who empower our modern welfare state and “they” are the supporters of feminism as it feeds the hand out society which “they” want to live in because “they” don’t want to compete on an equality based playing field.
If you want equality then you have met the right person to demand it along side of you. I’m with you 100%. I desperately want equality in the work force. Abso-freakin-lutely! But that means EQUAL and NOT some manufactured, feminist, b.s. version of what is FAIR. Make it like professional sports teams. Anyone who wants to can try out. Two thousand people, either gender, any social or ethnic background, whatever, all out there competing for 40 or 50 positions. If you don’t make the cut, ‘b – bye’. End of story. When you show me THAT equality, I’m with you.
By the way, spend more time in a dictionary before throwing around words like misogynist here. It is exactly the opposite of misogyny which brought this site into existence. It is the love of women, not hatred of them that makes so many men (real men) long so for women of character.
September 30, 2009 at 6:44 am
Sam,
I am always impressed by the way you make your points, explain your thinking and maintain decorum in the process. It speaks well of your humility and of respect for the viewpoints that other may have, even when you disagree with them.
Of late, I find myself somewhat unable to back off from people defending ideals that have been proven to be nonsense. Somehow I believe that people should just ‘get it’ eventually but I’m afraid that such a shift in philosophy might knock the planet off its axis. We are all different and ‘ain’t it great’?
One thing that seems to keep coming up here, as well as in a lot of the conversations I have with young people I talk to is that most people try to draw a direct link between feminism and equality. In my experience the two have never had much common ground.
While one abdicates a complete reversal of everything the other simply desires parody. Supporters of feminist doctrine seem bent on removing men from every situation possible and replacing them with women, whether they are qualified to take those spots or not. On the other hand, people who defend equality want to see the opportunities made available for anyone who thinks, or shows that they are qualified to take advantage of them.
Personally, I like equality and I want my daughter to grow up with no doors closed to her because of her gender. However, I will fight vehemently to keep her from accepting any position strictly on that same basis. It is dishonoring and degrading to tell someone they can have a job just because of their gender, skin color, nationality or anything else along those lines. It takes away their dignity and will almost always lead to lower self esteem once they realize that they did not have an earned right to the job in the first place.
My staunch stand against feminism is much broader than it may appear. I am outspoken against any form of entitlement system for people of normal intelligence and abilities. I’m also against any form of quota system which leads to lower productivity along with the lower overall expectation that workers will hold themselves to within such a system.
Like I mentioned in an earlier post, in team sports there is a reason why only the best individuals make up the best teams. Lots of people say that the NY Yankees just ‘buy’ their championships. Well, yes in a way they do. They have a budget which allows them to offer the highest pay in order to secure the finest players. The excessive payroll can not diminish the fact that NY simply has an abundance of great ball players. That doesn’t make the system unfair on the grounds that every team in the majors hasn’t got the same budget as NY. It certainly makes it hard for other teams to build a quality roster knowing that up and coming stars might leave for a bigger budget team as soon as they hit their prime.
There is a very good example of how NA mentality differs from other countries in the same sport. Ichiro Suzuki of the Seattle Mariners has continued to re-sign with the Ms out of respect for the team that brought him here. Back in Japan he was thee premier baseball star of the country and when he got here he started off by winning rookie of the year honors along with league MVP. His record speaks for itself in almost every sector of the game. Yet he has remained with Seattle when he could have easily doubled his pay by now and added a championship or two to his stats. Is it fair that such a phenomenal ball player as him isn’t wearing a few World Series rings by now? I sure don’t think so, but really it is. As much of a fan of the guy as I am purely for his ball playing, I am most impressed by his loyalty and dignity.
Anyhow, thanks for keeping your composure when responding to some of the things said here. It ups the value of the site having your perspective and style of commentary.
September 30, 2009 at 9:05 am
Would it have made a difference if I had said ‘80% of the failing economy’ or ‘failing states’ are run by men? The point is that MOST or the majority of people running things today, just like yesterday, are MALE. There has never been a female president, head of the Federal Reserve, presidents and most of the upper echelons of all the biggest banks are male. Yes, there are a few visible females in power positions, but they do not make up a large percentage. If there is one female sitting on the company board, there are 10 males. Please, do not argue against what is self evident. If we had just as many stupid women in the governments and other power structures as we have stupid men, then we would have gender equality. Women have only recently been able to get some power, and the sad thing is that women will be getting the power when the world is already (irreversibly?) damaged. And the patriarchy is exactly at the root of the problem, because it is not a balanced world view – it places the man at the center of the world and gives him the privilege/right/entitlement to put himself above the rest of the world. This goes against the natural law and the result is what we see today. A lot of it has been about conquest and not cooperation and symbiosis.
Richard, we will have to agree to disagree, of course, but I think I should change the style of my argument. I admit it was a bit too militant and provocative in the beginning, but this was just in response to some of the misogyny and one sidedness that I read here. I don’t want this to sound like an attack on the man because this is really not my wish or intention.
Yes, many problems were created because the traditional model was rejected. This is to a large extent because women were pushed into the labor market. Another thing is, many people did not want to live by the traditional model. Many men do not want to live by the old school values. Many modern men don’t want to get conscripted, to get married at 21 and have one wife and kids who they’d have to support financially for decades. They will rather either have pure fun or super careers that will buy them nice cars and get playboy type of bimbos. Not every man is like that, of course, there are many very decent guys. But hedonism is so prevalent, it’s just that those good guys disappear in the sea of xxx. It is usually the women and girls who fret about whether he’s gonna propose or not cheat or whatever and the guy is the one who has to be talked into finally proposing. This situation is just pathetic, so why not face the reality and stop imposing impossible standards on people.
I’m not defending the post-modern lifestyle, it’s a mix of traditions, habits and ideologies that has no structure. It is sort of a social chaos. But I will never defend the old order either because it wasn’t fair and it’s not sustainable or attractive to a modern woman.
The beauty industry is largely run by women and gays, true. The industry is based on vanity. And the reason for this is – men (the people with resources) value YOUNG and BEAUTIFUL women above all. If a woman wants a share of those resources, she must strive to remain young and beautiful. We know that this is biological to some extent, but for the most part it is culturally conditioned. The image has become more important than character and the image has been removed very far away from the real femininity (womanhood of substance and not appearance). Men admire the women in FHM, that’s exactly what most of them want, please, at least be honest and admit the truth. There are, of course, exceptions, like my father (and I’m sure many other men), but are they an exception or the rule?
By the way, gender equality means equal worth and status of both genders in society and equal opportunity. It does not imply that there are no biological or physical differences between the sexes. The art is to combine the different qualities of both sexes for the common purpose. That Social Darwinist remark about males being the strongest can really backfire because strength is a relative concept and not all males are strong.
Richard, I completely agree that freedom must be controlled by responsibility. Would certainly like to see more of that in today’s world on all levels. We have to be realistic though, that’s why there needs to be some sort of a structure that reins in the egoism. I believe this structure can come from within the human soul as a consensus in a society and doesn’t have to be imposed from above. But it requires a homogenious society, empathy and a balanced world view.
One more thing about ‘working women’ who you seem to dislike so much. These women contribute to the society with their taxes and some of their work/taxes constitutes the bail out money. They also have and raise kids sometimes without the help of men. Somebody has to be responsible for feeding and educating the kids, if it’s not the men, then the other choice is the state.
And about North America – sorry about the harshness of my previous comment, we all know America is extremely diverse. I have lived in the Midwest and have seen some fantastic examples of traditional families and motherhood. And hockey moms rule!
October 1, 2009 at 6:28 am
It’s funny how you keep asking for what has already been provided…..
Ad it’s a nice strawman argument….
The one female on the board of directors usually has more power than the rest of the men from what I have heard… If their whims aren’t followed, they threaten to file claims that lead to expensive audits, investigations, etc by government agencies…
Middle management females have similar habits. So, their policies of waste keep getting implemented…
As for the financial problems in the world today, that’s just a testing stage for more and much worse things to come….. It’s just a test to see how the people respond…. Kinda like dipping your tow in the water before you jump in…
Maybe you’re right, and mothers are under appreciated in society today, but if such is the case, fathers are at least 5 times so…. Commercials here around mother’s day portray the mother as a very powerful, busy super lady. Commercials around father’s day portray the father as a bumbling buffoon, and end with something like, “but we love him anyways….”
Now, as for the thing about women and businesses, why did Warren Buffet once say that he would never invest in a company with a woman on the board of directors??? I think there’s good reason for that… I know, I know, you’ll complain that the statement is prejudicial… Whatever. It has to do with the attitude of the women that get there in the major companies. They don’t try to work with people. They work against them. They have a scorched earth policy toward anything that opposes them… Sometimes that can be necessary, but it’s almost an invariability to those women that make it to the top in major companies.
It seems to be a general rule that when a female gets to the top in said major corporation, within 3-5 years, the company starts going downhill with ever increasing rapidity… These females usually divide boards on things. They refuse to look at a plan objectively, and instead push for or against not on the merits of the plan, but by who is presenting the plan, and whose idea it was, etc… Essentially, she does what females do best. Divide the board into cliques…
So, the board of the company is divided. Now, what happens???? real problems aren’t being addressed, and imaginary problems are being fought over. Eventually, the real problems become so big that they drag the company down. worn out equipment might be the real problem, but hiring quotas might be all the board meetings are about. No one I know looks at products and researches the company to see if the company is ethnically and gender balanced. They just want a product that does the job…
Now, my question to you is, why are you coming on to our place to discuss what we believe, and trying to ram your beliefs about Scandinavia down our throats??? Did any one on this blog go to a blog about Scandinavia, and all the ‘joys’ of their equality and start spouting about how you were wrong, and the Russian model is the best???
We have a saying here. “Don’t $hit on my lawn.”
So, if you like that model so much, find a blog that talks about what you like, and have fun there, and stop messing up the place where we come to discuss what we want to here…
Everything I see you write is like a liberal. I couldn’t even stand to read it all. It’s useless drivel. You call my a misogynist. Where did I say I hated all women??? I tried to say that I had a very great dislike for feminists, and gave reasons why… If that is above your understanding, I see no reason to discuss anything further with you as you’re proving yourself to be completely illogical….
If you want to talk about this further, let me know, and we can go to a place where the gloves can come off. Or maybe you just feel safe here because you know I can’t do that here. GL has my hands tied behind my back…
I will say this though, if you’re unhappy in latvia or wherever you’re from, go to scandinavia, and live there. Find a wife there. There are a great many beautiful women there. Soon, you’ll find out that Utopia is another name for Hell….
October 1, 2009 at 9:18 am
wolverine,
I agree about fathers not being appreciated enough. I think being a father should be a central component of the modern man’s identity.
And, yea, sorry for shoving Scandis down your throat, it’s just that they have a lot of solutions for the problems that make you mad, like divorces and custody rights and men’s rights. Equality in 2009 is actually more about men’s than women’s rights. And I don’t need a wife since I’m not lesbian.
October 1, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Hello Saule,
“And I don’t need a wife since I’m not lesbian.”
For some reason, I thought you were a male all along. I pictured you sitting at your computer– wearing one of those Viking helmets, and drinking straight whiskey out of one of those huge carafes or whatever they call those Nordic drinking cups–typing out missives with a vengeance. Please don’t stop posting. I enjoy reading all points of view, and need the intellectual stimulation. I would like to hear more about Latvia as well.
P.S. Please note the gender and appearance of the head of the FDIC in the U.S.A.
October 1, 2009 at 2:55 pm
wolverine,
It seems pointless to continue a debate of any sort with saule, unless we find some joy in hearing the same hashed out answers to any and every point we try to make. Some people simply choose to live in a fantasy world where Utopian ideologies might actually exist. The rest of us however must keep trudging alone in the real world where deception and trickery rule the day and where the things we talk about are easy to document with hard evidence and statistical data.
Like you, I wonder why anyone who so totally disagrees with the philosophy of a site like this would ever be here in the first place, much less keep coming back again and again to spew ideals which are completely contradictory in nature. But then I have never understood why ultra liberals can consistently look at facts and deny their validity.
October 1, 2009 at 5:25 pm
LOL sam! haha, not my real image exactly, but thanks anyway. 🙂
I came here by accident.. 🙂 and I like picking on folks who think they have all the real answers to everything.
October 2, 2009 at 3:03 am
Please accept my apologies for saying about you having a wife. I honestly thought you were a male….
My ex gf grew up in Riga. She now lives in Denmark.
As for the equality solutions there…. They aren’t near what they should be….
She was a manager for the baltic/CIS states for a computer company. She and I had many of the same discussions you and I are having now…
She said that when a company there is hiring, preference is first given to women, then ethnic minorities (read anything but Caucasian), disabled, then to healthy white males…
It was easiest to fire a healthy white male. Firing an ethnic minority, woman, or disabled person could very easily trigger a state investigation…
Now, in reality, is that a solution?? Is that equality?? The same things is common place in North America…
As for all this stuff about equality, woudl it not be better to go back to traditional gender roles?? Nature didn’t intend for men and women to be equal. Men and women both have very different, but equally important roles…
What people don’t realize is that when you fight nature, you’ll lose… Nature has been here long before you and I were born, and she will be here long after the dust is gone from our bones…
For breaking her laws, she extracts a price on the lawbreaker. It could be loss of wealth, or happiness in later days, living life without anything extra that’s nice, or many other things..
Man’s laws may contradict the laws of nature, but nature will win in the end. She is so much more powerful than anything man has…
That being said, is you want to talk about your life in Latvia, and possibly help the people here understand your culture, please stay and share…
October 1, 2009 at 4:06 am
Hello Doamna,
You are a Russian or Eastern European native if I remember correctly, right? If so, you can never be off topic here. This site celebrates you gals, so you can derail all you wish as far as I am concerned. GL’s probably out courting anyway. 🙂
I hope you will share more about what you have learned in your study of God and what little we know about his infinite nature. In my discussions with Bible scholars over the years I have been told repeatedly that The NEW AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION is the best of a rather poor group of translations. Outside of the fact that it is extremely difficult to translate the expansive ancient Greek of the New Testament into a limited language like English, on one has ever explained how other possible misrepresentations have occured to me. Hopefully, you and Wolverine can share some information on this topic.
By the way, I have had difficulty gaining access to your protected site because of problems with the passwords WordPress assigns me. I guess your site has protected status for a reason, but I would love to visit it when I can.
October 1, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Hello Saule,
Thanks for your response. I hope you can post a photo so I put it on my board with all my other “girlfriends” from around the world. My favorite, Kisha of Moscow, would not send me one, so I had an artist render one that includes all the best features he could conjure up.
With age, I just turned 49, I have learned to appreciate different points of view, regardless of how much they differ from my own. The guys I eat lunch with range from left of Chavez down in Venezuela to the far right of that heavyset guy on the radio here in the States.
As for me, I am as much a sucker for beauty as the next guy, but when it comes down to it, I’ll take brains and a good heart first—-any day of the week.
October 2, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Hello Again, Saule,
I just came in for a late lunch, and did some research on the name “Saule” while checking messages. Is Saule your surname or are you borrowing it from Latvian mythology?
According to one source(for the pleasure of those interested),
Saule is the most powerful of the Latvian mythological goddesses. She is the goddess of the sun and of fertility, and the patroness of all unfortunate people, esp. orphans. She is said to live on top of heavenly mountain, where she rides her chariot during the day.
I found the role of the goddess as patroness of all unfortunate people to be especially interesting. Maybe the Saule that comments here plays that role as well. 🙂
I admire your spunk, and look forward to some more of your commentary.
October 2, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Saule does sound like solar something, the Russian equivalent would be Lada if I’m not mistaken. Or Baba Yaga, when it comes to orphans, this particular lady was demonized by Christians for no good reason at all.
Sam, could you please delete me from your *girlfriends* list and put me into one of your *daughters*?
October 3, 2009 at 11:56 pm
Hi Kisha,
As I told, Saule, I was just joshing about the list of girlfriends and photos. I like to have fun, and everywhere I go, I strike up a conversation when I can, because I am genuinely interested in people. The same goes for my interactions online. In my references to you, I was emphasizing that, though you are a young woman of another generation, and culture with widely different views than my own, that I respect you and see no reason to condemn you. Anyone that follows the commentary here knows that you are a woman with strong feelings, and that you are not afraid to express them. That’s fine with me, and I tried to convey that. Rest assured, I have no romantic interest in you, and age isn’t the reason. In my neck of the woods, the term girlfriend doesn’t necessarily indicate romance is involved. I call my barber my girlfriend, and she is 19-years-old and engaged. So, relax, I am not a pervert or stalker. Here in the States, if a guy is halfway decent, he is generally the one that is stalked. Take care.
October 4, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Thank you again Sam, didn’t mean you were a pervert, just that I could easily be your daughter in terms of the age difference; And I’d have to call your *sir* I like your outlook on life, full of atrapological interest.
October 4, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I have had minimal contact with Kisha, but have liked the way she writes and expresses herself… I have tendencies to be cruder, blunter and less refined… Probably has to do with youth…. I’m trying to do a sharp knife’s job with a sledgehammer….
October 5, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Thanks wolverine, the tendecies you described can also be attributed to excess of testosterone and youth, you’re right. =)) and youth is known to end too fast, so there’s no need to worry.
October 5, 2009 at 5:21 pm
I think it actually has something to do with martial arts training as well…
We were taught that if you hit a guy hard enough that he feels like his unborn grandkids’ teeth are rattling, he’s a lot less likely to fight you the next time, but simply cut him, he’ll be back for more next week….
When do you think youth actually ends???
Oh, yes, I was meaning to ask you Kisha, how old are you??
October 7, 2009 at 2:50 am
Baba Yaga was to say the least, a recluse who didn’t care for visitors. An old witch who travel in a mortar with bony legs was hardly Miss Congeniality. But the ones who knew how to deal with her and stay in her good graces won her favor, and her backing. She may have been a cranky, bad tempered old crone, but she did admire and respect courage and bravery. And of course she was the queen of and the most powerful of all the witches and faeries. Christianity did however co-opt a great many pagan divinities and beliefs for it’s own ends.
Taras
October 7, 2009 at 7:46 pm
That too, wolverine. Technically youth ends when the body stops growing, physical youth that is. Psycologically it ends when an individual learns how to bear resposibility not only for himself but for someone else. And not only lears how to do that but fully accept it as well.
I’m 27, it’s when they say the brain starts to die =)
October 7, 2009 at 7:50 pm
I actually think that youth ends when you decide that you know everything, and there is nothing else to learn…
October 3, 2009 at 8:22 pm
haha why thank you Sam!
October 3, 2009 at 9:19 pm
You are most welcome, Darling.
October 5, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Hi Kisha,
Thanks for the reassurance. Certainly, I don’t want to be know as a pervert.
You know, age is such a relative thing. My neighbor was kidding around with some Cherokee Native American Indian chiefs(or two guys that pose as chiefs)at the Cherokee reservation recently. The larger, older chief claimed to be 111-years-old. My neighbor looked at the younger appearing chief standing there and said, Is he really 111-years-old?” The chief replied, “I don’t know, Son, I have only known him for 107 years!”
This is totally off topic, but I heard a joke on the way to Chapel Hill this morning that I’ll share. After hearing it, it took a few seconds to sink in; I guess further evidence that I am too old for spry kids like you. 🙂 Well, anyway, a sandwich walked into a restaurant, sat down and told the waitress that he wanted the day’s special. The waitress said, “I am sorry, Sir, but we don’t serve food here.”
Hilarious, isn’t it? We old guys are known for our sorry jokes!
Take care, Kisha. You can call me ‘Sir’ if you would like. 🙂
October 7, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Thanks for the jokes, Sam, I liked them. =)
October 2, 2009 at 7:41 pm
wolverine, I apologize for being rude to you. And no, the hiring situation in the Baltics is NOT like you described since we don’t really have that much colored minorities here. And the preference is usually given to a male (the best options are for males over 25). People also openly speak about a ‘male salary’ and a ‘female salary’. For instance, people easily throw around phrases like ‘That’s not a bad salary for a woman’. That said, we have loads of active, smart, successful women as well, so the Baltics are actually in a good situation.
On the laws of Nature.. yes, they are above all. And the current world situation is a good example of what happens if you defy Nature and try to control her. I don’t consider the traditional Christian marriage the most natural one. My grandparents were farmers and the grandmother didn’t just stay at home, she worked on the farm just like grandad. They shared all responsibilities together. It’s an ideal situation when the husband can make enough money to let the wife stay at home – I’ve seen such examples in NA, but here it is nearly impossible. The reality is that women HAVE to work. That’s the reality today, even when you don’t aspire to have a luxurious life. Even Peter Schiff recognized this.
sam, how come you collect photos, are you a polygamist or just fantasizing? 🙂 I’m pretty by the way, with long blonde hair. LOL! I agree, a good heart is the real value.
October 2, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Saule,
I was just joshing about the collection of photos. I don’t have time to fantasize; I am too busy paying the piper. 🙂 And polygamy has no appeal whatsoever to me. For crying out loud, one woman is enough.
I had a feeling you were pretty. Like I said in the last post, I like your spunk; and that will be there when you are holding yourself together with bandaids and baling twine.
Darn, I have people waiting on me, so I will have to go for now. More later.
October 3, 2009 at 1:31 am
Thank you for your apology. I apologise for being rude to you too. Turns out that you are the better woman .. That came out wrong… lol
About the hiring, my ex gf wasn’t talking about the Baltics, she was talking about the situation in Denmark. In fact, I could rarely get her to talk about Latvia… She also got mad at me for trying to speak Russian… I never understood that, and could never get a reason…
I grew up on a farm, and I think that all boys shoudl grow up on a farm… Might teach them responsibility…
I had to look after 150 head of cattle before school when I was 9 years old. I had to start at 6 am, cause the bus came at 7 am, and then I’d have to feed them again after I got home…
When I was 14, my dad got very sick, and spent about 20-22 hours each day in bed. Grandpa and I looked after 1700 hectares of farmland by ourselves… I fell behind in school… A lot…
Now, it’s kinda a full circle. I look after the farm again…
I understand what you are talking about when you say that your grandma was working with your grandpa. That is actually in my mind a closer version of what is actually talked about in the Bible than what most see today… I believe the teachings of the Bible have been twisted to suit the ‘modern situation’.
I would be interested to know how old you are??? Would you happen to be from Riga as well???
October 2, 2009 at 8:02 pm
sam,
Thanks for your effort in researching Latvian names and you are absolutely right – Saule is the Sun goddess, simply the Sun. 🙂 And among other things she is the patroness and protector of orphans. 🙂
October 3, 2009 at 3:36 am
Several Russian girls from St. Petersburg visited our dance hall this evening. I was helping some of them with learning the rudiments of dance steps. It was nice to be surrounded by such femininity. They were especially bubbly with their giggles. It was awesome. Soft skin, perfumed hair, giggles, just like Masha and her friends. Their perfume must have rubbed off, I can still smell the scent on my shirt.
I think I’m about to loose my mind.
-M
October 3, 2009 at 4:09 am
“If I get back before I get here, please tell me to go find myself….” 😛
Hope you got phone numbers… Would be worth the time I think…
October 3, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Well Wolverine, no I didn’t and they are leaving this Monday. But they are friends of a friend.
First, there were three, and I was comparing and contrasting them. The first one I danced with had the figure of Marilyn Monroe, nice. The second one looked Swedish with beached blond hair and ivory skin tone dressed in a silver tone outfit. And the third was slender like Kate Moss slender. Now, I’m a man who prefers curvature so the first one stood out. And just when I thought I was done with comparing and contrasting, a fourth gal walked in just as the dance was ending and whooaaa, she just about knocked the ball far out of field. I had to take a double take to make sure I was seeing what I was seeing. Incredible, unbelievable. Unfortunately, zero positive vibes from her.
October 3, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Where have you been, Manoah? Nah, Manoah, a smart man like you—one smart enough to take up dance while the rest of us were getting our heads bashed by a bunch of ugly, sweaty men on athletic courts and fields– is not going to lose or loose his mind. I think you are going to find your match there, and live happily ever after.
Dear Saule,
I hope you have been out riding around in your chariot, and picking up orphans, the lost, the oppressed, and the poor and disenfranchised! I know your role, and I appreciate it.
You are a product of good stock, and that’s a blessing and something to be thankful for.
Please understand that strong, principled men are out looking for you as we speak.
As a white, middle-aged, male in the South, I can tell you that racial prejudice and bigotry are alive and well here. Discrimination against women is much, much less an issue for several reasons. The primary one being that women in this region have the training and skills competitive companies are looking for.
The fight against prejudice, and discrimination has been part of my family’s heritage for five generations now, and we have paid a price for it. My late father was an early advocate for integration, and equal opportunity(a fair chance to compete). When out and about with him as a small boy, I witnessed more than one verbal attack on him, and I saw customers that were unhappy with his stance take their business elsewhere. Thanks to him, I have an open mind and great tolerance for different points of view, but a strong distaste for hate, and discrimination of any kind.
Your questions about the economy and where we go from here are interesting. I remember listening to similar discussions in the early 1970s and early 1980s. The digital revolution provided the jobs and opportunity we were all looking for in the 70s, but we dropped the ball on energy. The economic response to the early 80s doldrums brought the mess we are in today. I remain an optimist, and I realize that, though we all must have food, clothing and shelter, that life is more than economics. I hope these lean times will help us regain our appreciation for the simple pleasures and gifts in life.
Keep the faith, Spunky Saule. As always your comments are appreciated.
October 3, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Sam,
I have been busy reading up on things like courtship, how to read body languages and other self improvements. Taking GL’s advice; taking inventory of the self and reshaping it. Made good contributions to Amazon’s bottom line. But its all for the good. I feel better now, happier knowing what I now know and having learned from these authors. Only wished, why hadn’t I done this sooner. Alas, better now than later. And Sam, I’ve read books from modern and classical authors, the classical ones really stand out. They have a way of thinking, a seriousness and attitude about life, they certainly have command of my respect. These fellas, they’ve got character and good values.
There does seem to be deficits of men in our dance halls. Ah, woe is me, having to entertain all these old ladies. But, once in a while, heaven smiles, like last month, two Finnish gals decide to drop on in. Ooh lah lah. Ever seen two Finnish blondes bopping up and down to the beat of music?? It jars the psyche, takes and grabs hold of it and boy, it surely is something that one’s memory doesn’t let easily slip away. Now, here’s the kicker, they can bake really tasty sweets, and the one can play piano, and there’s this femininity in the way that they move that one rarely sees in the American gals.
-M
October 4, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Good to hear from you, Manoah. I am pleased to hear about your quest for self-improvement. A classical education is the best, no doubt. I envy your knowledge of dance and the skills you have acquired. You would be a popular man with the many ladies of all ages who love dance in this area. My friend, Harry, the 74-year-old Greek guy that I have mentioned before, has a ball at formals and shag clubs because of the dance training he had in his youth.
Speaking of dance halls, shortly after I learned to drive, a couple of friends and I would travel up the mountain to the resort town of Blowing Rock to a popular bar and dance club. Because of the elevation, and scenery, people from all over flock into that area in the summer months. The cook at the boarding school I attended had a part-time job checking IDs at the door of the club, and he always let me and my friends in. It was an exciting place for a young guy. The times were kinder and gentler, and people tended to be more outgoing and hospitable. The place had a vibrant, cosmopolitan feel about it because of the sophisticated nature of the clintele. The walls were lined with beautiful girls in gorgeous floral print sun dresses, attractive middle-aged couples, and students from the local university. Shortly after entering that night, we were approached by three vivacious girls who wanted partners for the evening’s dance contest. I tried to beg off because, despite having a little rythmn, I had trouble remembering dance steps, and was forever screwing up routines. My partner wouldn’t listen to any of it, and said that she would have me up to speed in no time. As she wheeled me through a few shag steps, she told me that she was a competitive gymnast at a Southern university, and had studied classical dancing since she was a small girl. I was nervous as heck, and sweating profusely, but this girl with slight hand pressure and gentle nudges with her hips, had me moving around like a Fred Astaire wannabe. Her manner, her beauty, and the sweet smell of her perfume had this teetotaling guy intoxicated. As we whirled around, I would catch glimpses of my buddies, and I could tell from their expressions that they were flabbergasted. Well, at any rate, the time for the contest finally arrived, and I considered leaving the place in a run. As they lined the males and females up in rows facing each other(with a 12-15 ft. gap between us), my partner dropped me off at the end of the line, and found her place opposite me. When called, each couple would meet in the middle, and then be given a minute or two to dance down the aisle. Let me tell you, it was agonizing waiting, and watching, my stomach was in knots. When we were called, I sashayed(is that a word?) to the middle, and proceeded to nail every step as my partner whirled and twirled under my outstretched right arm. I caught her easily as she dipped twice, and when we finished she hugged me and gave me a nice peck on the cheek. Needless to say, we won! And that was the end of my competitive dancing career.
Take care, Manoah. I always enjoy hearing about your life.
October 5, 2009 at 12:29 am
Awh Sam,
That could have been the beginning of it and not the end? Once I’ve taken step onto the dance floor, there was no going back. And that girl sure sound like she could have been more than a dance partner!
-M
October 5, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Thanks, Manoah. I guess for the sake of any future partners, it’s good that it ended right there. 🙂 It took a supremely talented gal like that to get me through. Unfortunately, my buddies and I had to leave immediately after the contest in order to make curfew at our respective homes, and we never saw those girls again. I have never been able to put steps like that together since, so maybe all the stars aligned that night. Wherever she is, I am sure that girl is bringing a lot of joy into the lives of those around her.
Keep us posted, Manoah. In dancing, you have latched on to a fine activity, and it’s pure pleasure to read about your experiences with it.
October 4, 2009 at 9:59 pm
wolverine,
Ok, I see that it’s Denmark you meant. Alright. Well, they tend to have that, but in fact, deep inside Scandinavians are pretty nationalistic. Latvians and Russians have an issue between each other, but I hope that will be resolved soon.
It’s really amazing what you are telling about how you grew up. It sounds really heavy duty. I saw first hand how much the folks on the country side used to work, I’m not sure if most younger folks would be able to live a life like that. It’s just a lot of work.. nevertheless, my grandparents both lived very long lives. I’m glad you took care of your animals..
and I agree that boys need to be raised with more discipline and preferably by their dads.
sam,
Thanks for your kind words. I’ve been thinking about getting involved in charity.. I’m thinking it would help me deal with some of the feelings that are arising from observing some of the hardships other people are going through.
I’m glad we don’t have that situation with other races here in Latvia, but oh well..
I will write a bit more later, I have to run some errands now.
Hope y’all had a nice weekend!
October 5, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Hi Saule,
Thanks for writing back.
I have just witnessed one of the casualties of our financial crisis first hand. A lady that has lived for years in a home in a one street development that borders my property was just evicted by Chase bank. She lost her job over a year ago, and had fallen behind on her mortgage. Chase refused to work with her, and ended up buying the house when it was auctioned on the court house steps the week before last. Sadly, I was not in a postion to help her.
Using words like “y’all”, Saule. Wow, we might make a Southern Belle out of you yet! 🙂
October 5, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Haha, I said that on purpose. 🙂
Well, sorry to hear about the lady. She’ll probably have to move to a one room apartment. But at least she is not left with a huge debt, like many Latvians are who took up ridiculous mortgage loans – they end up losing the property AND staying in debt, because the banks over here do not write the debt off!
October 5, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Ah, Saule, you can’t fool me. I think you just let that “ya’ll” slip, and it’s a clue to your real identity—–A 55-year-old cross-dressing longshoreman with a beer gut and multiple tatoos, living in LA(lower Alabama). That’s okay, though. As I have said, you and Kisha are two of my favorites, despite the fact that Kisha called me a pervert.
Thanks for sharing the tidbit of information about Latvia. I know it takes time to look all that stuff up online down there in Alabama. 🙂
October 6, 2009 at 6:11 pm
No way, sam. I’m a young cowboy from Tulsa, OK, wearing tight jeans and a suberb hat! And on a steel horse I ride… you know the rest.. 🙂
October 6, 2009 at 8:21 pm
And a smart and knowledgeable cowgirl I see—–
I came in from work just to see if you had responded, because I knew you would have a heck of a comeback. Here’s some true blue Americana for you(check it out live at YouTube):
Oklahoma Borderline
by Vince “The Prince” Gill
Well it’s raining down in Houston
And I got holes in both my shoes
Saule’s put me on the street
She says, “I’m through with you.”
Saule thinks I’m gonna miss her
Someone tell her that she’s wrong
I’m going back to Oklahoma, boys
‘Cause that’s where I belong
verses continue
I think you and Kisha would look better on horses, rather than steel horses(motorcycles). I am still looking forward to that picture of you. You can wear a hat if you wish, but the jeans are mandatory. 🙂
October 4, 2009 at 10:04 pm
Kisha, I’m not sure if there is an equivalent of Saule in Slavonic mythology, you have Dazhbog.
October 5, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Dazhbog is the god of wisdom, actually they all are somehow connected to sun, the problem is that there’re too many gods to remember, same as with every mythology.
October 4, 2009 at 10:21 pm
I don’t know where my other post went but thanks again for the kind words, I’ll be back later.
October 5, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Wolverine,
You wrote:
“It was easiest to fire a healthy white male. Firing an ethnic minority, woman, or disabled person could very easily trigger a state investigation…”
I have to say that that is not my experience at all. Where I work people get fired if they don’t mind their job (except, incidentally, a healthy white guy who is always late and disappears as soon as things get hectic).
It is true, however, that it is illegal to fire a woman if it is because she is pregnant.
October 5, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Ok. I guess I have to revise that statement. As I said, that was what my ex gf who worked in Denmark told me… I suppose it could also depend on the boss… I”m sorry for the error…
October 7, 2009 at 1:35 pm
My friend Harry Galifianakis, the 74-year-old Greek-American that I have mentioned in passing, stopped by my nursery yesterday. I told him that I had spoken of his dancing skills, and strong marriage in a thread on a blog that celebrates Russian women. Though slightly bemused, it seemed to please him and tears came to his eyes. Ever the pitching salesman, he wanted me to say a few things on his behalf. First, Harry just wrapped up a non-speaking part on a movie now being filmed. His son, Zach, a profane commedian and actor, introduced him(Harry) to the director of his last movie, “Hangover”, and the director hired him on the spot for a role. Unfortunately, Zach told the director not to give his Dad a speaking part because he said he talked like he had marbles in his mouth. That’s not true, in fact, he’s quite eloquent, but, nonetheless, Harry was relegated. Though he might end up on the cutting room floor, Harry is optimistic that he will soon be on the silver screen, and he wants you to go see him. I am sorry to say I have forgotten the name of the movie, though. I do remember that Robert Downey, Jr. is the lead actor, but I’ll have to get back to you on the rest. Secondly, though I told him that political discourse is not encouraged here, he wanted me to tell everybody, particularly the citizens of other countries, that he loves you, and that American men are not all bad.
I took the time to type all the above because Harry is a real friend, and because that is what this site is ultimately about—friendship. Guys like Harry that have been married for decades tell me that marriage is all about friendship. That’s the final thing he had to say, too. He wanted me to tell all those folks out there to find a true friend, and love will follow, sometimes in bucket loads.
October 7, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Remember, girls. To see a real Okie in tight jeans, sans hat, go to YouTube and type Oklahoma Borderline Vince Gill in the search box. The video posted by pbyardh on December 29, 2007 is the right one to watch. Heck, Saule might be Vince Gill posting, who knows?
October 8, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Hi, Kisha. Please note how Vince Gill calls the violin(fiddle) player girlfriend just before her solo. That’s an old Southern and Western custom here in the States. I tried to keep track of how many times I called various women “girlfriend” when out and about Monday. It was startling to say the least.
I am glad you liked my joke. We old guys need to be humored sometimes. Please keep posting. I really enjoy coming to this site when I am supposed to be doing paperwork, and reading the comments.
October 8, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Hi Sam, the reason to this was that I was not accustomed to this type of nickname, love or darling or even pet would do the trick, but girlfried was a whole new thing to me. So now I’m aware of that way one can call a female, which is apparently commonly used in the Southern part of the US. Will not freak out next time, it may some time to adjust.
October 9, 2009 at 12:14 am
Hi Kisha,
Did you watch/listen to the video? I love all kinds of music, and enjoy the videos at YouTube immensely.
October 9, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Hi Sam, Aye I did, it;s not really the type of music I’m into, but it was nice and very educational as well.
October 9, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Kisha,
For you my sister
October 9, 2009 at 8:58 pm
I am glad you took a look at it, Kisha. Country music is not my favorite either, but Vince Gill is extremely talented, a true blue Okie(person from Oklahoma), and just an all around nice person. Like your country, the US if filled with diversity, and folks from places like Oklahoma are more representative of the population than people in the urban centers like New York.
Though I am certainly not a musician, I have enjoyed playing the guitar for years, and love most any music people produce with the instrument. Several years ago, a bluegrass band from Russia appeared at a large local music festival called Merlefest. Even people who don’t have a strong affinity for that type of music were enchanted with them.
Well, be on the lookout for any Okies you might see in Moscow, and say “howdy” when they pass, and don’t be alarmed if one of them calls you girlfriend.:)
October 13, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Thanks Saule haha, but when it comes to folk I really prefer Melnica.
October 10, 2009 at 6:34 pm
I just viewed/listened to the video. I really liked the flute(?) and traditional instruments. According to Wikipedia,Arkona, a Russian pagan metal band, is led by vocalist Masha, aka “Scream”. Paraphrasing the entry, their lyrics are heavily influenced by Russian folklore and Slavic mythology, and their music incorporates several traditional Russian instruments.
I would like to know more about the setting of the video. Was it filmed in the countryside near Moscow, etc.?
For me, music has always been a bright light in what is often a dark world. YouTube has enabled us all to enjoy music from everywhere, and I remain a fan of the service.
October 13, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Thanks in no small part to me, this thread appears to be interminable. Despite all the differences of opinion, I am encouraged by the fact that people care enough about the issues to think about them, and express their opinions about them. I enjoy taking a break from my efforts to make a living, and reading all the comments. In doing so, I hope I gain a broader perspective, and more understanding of those in the world around me.
Once a week, generally on Sunday mornings, I try to take the time to read something about the lives of others, and attempt to identify with their situation or condition. This past Sunday, I found a video in the NEW YORK TIMES about an ordeal endured by an 11-year-old schoolgirl in Swat, Pakistan. Sadly, she is caught in the middle of a battle between powerful forces, but she has persevered. At the beginning of the video, which covered a three month period in her life, she expressed her love of education and her desire to be a doctor. At the end of the period, she felt that she could better serve her people as a political leader. I tried to step outside my sentimentality, and natural urge to want to provide some protection and aid to this bright young girl, and really step into her shoes. In doing so, I realized that we are really not all that different. A middle-aged man living in North Carolina, and an 11-year-old girl living in Swat, Pakistan have a lot in common in this case. I think we are both searching for the same things in the short and fleeting time we are alloted. When worldly ambitions collide in the days and months ahead, I plan to keep that in mind.
October 14, 2009 at 9:04 pm
sam, we will all see at the end that we are all valuable as humans. And I’m sure that this is the most beautiful thing that the Bible has taught you.
The video… I posted it because I liked how the lady had so much love for the Nature and how she saw divinity in all of it.
I think the idea of the video is to learn to appreciate all the things that are tangible to us and that we hold dear on this good Earth. And to love them.
Meanwhile, I have great faith in America, and the real foundations of your country. Remember the rugged individualists, with their work ethic and perseverance, – these are the true fundamentals of your economy and these are gonna be the folks who will take us through these hard times.
October 14, 2009 at 11:59 pm
Saule,
I really agree with what you’ve said regarding all of us having value as humans and also that it is a basic, fundamental teaching of the Bible. But I don’t understand your meaning in saying we should “learn to appreciate all the things that are tangible to us and that we hold dear on this good Earth. And to love them”. It is not the ‘things’ that we should love (if that’s what you meant) but rather the people. Everything we have will turn to dust, including the planet we live on, but the relationships and the people we are in those relationships with are the great treasures of life. I think that is what you were getting at, am I right?
At a group meeting last night the example of athletes was brought up and how much emphasis we seem to place on some of them who reach the very top of their chosen sport. Then one person told the story of a foot race during the Paralympics. It seems that shortly after the gun sounded to start the race, one of the runners tripped and fell. Immediately all of the other racers stopped to see if he was alright and helped him to his feet so that he might continue the race. In that story I see the value of a competitor outweighed by the value of a person. Of course the racers all wanted to win but somewhere in the minds of these people that the rest of us often feel sorry for, they all saw real victory in everyone finishing the race together. What a lesson for us all.
I also appreciate what you said about having faith in America and mostly because of that ‘real foundation’ which was set in place by ‘rugged individualists, with their work ethic and perseverance’. These are the values and traits which made America a great nation, and sadly the very characteristics which have all but disappeared throughout the free world over the past few generations. I long for a person or group of people in the US who will put their life and liberty on the line in hope of bringing the country back to some semblance of decency and justice. There is certainly no one here yet who has put God and country ahead of their own self serving, power mongering and wealth building.
Maybe we will live to see honesty and dignity return to the halls of government one day. Most likely it will only happen after a complete break down of everything we know and a long and violent civil war. Every nation that has fallen this far from center has met with revolution or conquest and as much as it breaks my heart to consider, I don’t see us avoiding such a fate for very much longer.
October 17, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Richard,
When I said we should appreciate all the things that we hold dear on this good Earth, I meant – we should value our work and we should value Nature. That we must respect the resources that the Mother Earth has granted to us. I see that the current European civilisation lacks this understanding. The Earth is a gift. It is not a commodity that you use for your pleasure.
Human relationships… besides the fact that I could write a book on this, would it suffice to say that I object to the human selfishness?
October 17, 2009 at 11:10 pm
And by the way – which human relationship did you really mean? Did you mean my parents who have stayed in a monogomous union for almost 30 years, me and my sister and our boy/man friends who have been the best friends and stood out for each other?
or…. did you mean:
The 50% divorce rate, violence in the family, kids left on their own, girls exploited, sex trade, pornography, wars, playboy mansion, Angelina Jolie shooting guns – is this the super human relationships you’re talking about that I should revere and admire? No thank you.
October 18, 2009 at 12:41 am
Hello Richard,
As always, I am pleased that you take the time to share your knowledge and talent here.
I remain optimistic about our country because I am in constant contact with the caliber of people who have always formed the backbone of a society so dependent on the good works of the individual. Just as in biblical days, the men and women who carry the load are no less a remnant, but they have the strength to hold all the threads together I believe. On my frequent 1-3 hour jaunts via car and truck in my region, I almost always travel alone. I love that because it gives me the opportunity to observe and interact with complete strangers without hindrance. While standing at a sink in a bathroom at a Cracker Barrel restaurant recently, I witnessed an encouraging exchange between an elderly grandfather and his very young grandson. The grandfather patiently encouraged his grandson to conserve paper towels, clean up after himself at the sink, and to leave the facility in better shape than he found it. He went into great detail explaining why conservation, and taking care of other people’s property is of great importance. As we all three walked to the door, he asked the boy to open and hold the door for me, and as I walked back out into the restaurant, I heard him explaining common courtesy. I see that kind of thing frequently enough to know that the “remnant” is being reinforced all the while, and that principled young people, are coming along. My Dad was very much part of the remnant, and he taught me what he knew to be important. As I age, I grow more determined not to let his legacy down.
Hang in there, Richard. I appeciate your strong morals, your writing talent, and your thoughtful posts. Remember, we are just passing through here, and the best is yet to come.
October 15, 2009 at 2:40 am
Hi Saule,
Where have you been, out on tour with the band? Thanks for the compliment about the very important lesson I have learned.
You seem to have a really good command of the English language. Would you please share with all the readers of this blog how you became so fluent? I am also interested in knowing what other languages you speak, and what you use in your daily life. For a young person you also seem to have a really mature perspective on a number of things. Regardless of whether anyone agrees or disagrees with what you have to say, it is obvious that you have done a lot of thinking. Is that unique to you or is that common in Latvia? If it is somewhat unique, did your family encourage you to examine the world around you closely, and to commit time to introspection as well?
I fully understand where both you and Richard are coming from in regards to an appreciation for the natural world. I come from a long line of plantsman and naturalists on both sides of the family, so my love for nature can be a tad consuming at times. That love is a blessing, though, for I am easily amused and entertained by simple pleasures like hikes, views of sunsets, etc.
I appreciate your faith in America, and I share your optimism. It is unfortunate that the excesses that began here and in a couple of other financial centers have caused so much pain and grief globally. As always, the few caused problems for the many. Of course I love my country, and am thankful for the freedom and opportunity it has afforded me, but I am first a human being. Several years ago, I carefully cut a picture out of the morning paper, and taped it on my refrigerator. The caption reads, “Relatives of a slain Iraqi police officer mourn in the northern town of Kirkuk. Gunmen attacked an Iraqi army checkpoint, killing 11.” In the picture a handsome young Iraqi boy, his face contorted in pain and anguish and covered in tears, is comforted by two men. Many strong people have walked up to that refrigerator, and taken a close look at what I have taped there, and each has winced, and made a comment about the pain pictured there. To this day, I wince, too. Beautiful as it is, this is a hard world. I don’t know that boy’s name, but I pray for him, and I look forward to seeing him on the other side.
I appreciate you, Saule. Please do your best over there, and share when you can. Take care.
October 17, 2009 at 10:49 pm
sam,
I didn’t really understand the remark about the band.
When it comes to languages – Latvian (one of the most ancient European tongues), English, Russian, some Norwegian and Swedish. Studied French and Italian for half a year but that doesn’t really count.
America really hurt the world with their ridiculous spending and consumerist incentive. That was really vile. Especially your pornographic attitude towards the female that has been transmitted to the Eastern Europe.
I won’t comment any further.. figure it out for yourself.
October 17, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Hello Saule,
I just came in from work and checked my e-mail, and because I was surprised by the tone of your comment, I wanted to reply quickly.
First, I have always expressed my admiration for your well-informed remarks, obvious intelligence, and fluency with the English language. I thought it would be interesting for me and all the readers here to learn something about how you were able to develop such enviable skills and knowledge of the world around you. It is remarkable for a person of any age to have the knowledge of self and the world around her to address difficult and problematic economic, social and political issues with such dexterity. I was and am quite impressed with you.
Secondly, most ethical, thinking Americans have accepted the fact that our conspicious consumption, greed, and fascination with all things superficial is unhealthy and has been detrimental to the world at large. I don’t have a grasp of gender related issues and problems here in the States, much less abroad. Suffice it to say, that I have always treated people of both genders, and people of all ethnicities with dignity and respect. Men are by nature lustful, so, if one desires he must address that issue in a personal way. Again, I have always strived to rise above the tendency to reduce women to sexual objects, and I have a successful history in that area that I am proud of. I do acknowledge the beauty of women regularly, but the beauty I praise is not the beauty that Hollywood and the pornographic industry fixate on.
Finally, I am constantly learning from those around me, and I appreciate your input. Indeed, you have helped me figure out a number of things. This discourse has been my pleasure, and to my benefit, and I will always appreciate your candor. Saule, we are all mistake prone humans replete with our seeming inconsistencies, and foibles. I don’t agree with many of the things said here and elsewhere, but I am willing to listen, and give them the dignity of a response. Thanks so much for your reply.
October 19, 2009 at 7:45 pm
sam,
Thank you for your kind words and open heart. And thank you for the compliments. My style of thinking stems from various sources.. my individuality, some of my upbringing, the time I spent educating myself and some of my observations.
Like I said, I really love America, but I don’t like the American standard of beauty. I think it is oppressive towards the woman. The woman is too glamorized, too sexualized. As if it does not suffice to be who you are and what you look like naturally. I was raised with a great deal of self worth and it really contradicts with my worldview. I don’t like how women are used in the Hollywood industry (Hugh Hefner type of bimbos). Don’t get me wrong – I’m not a tomboy, I’m actually rather feminine looking. But I am told by the media and the men who are brainwashed by this media, that that still isn’t enough. I’m expected to be even more sexualized, otherwise I lose worth as a member of the society and a female. This is something that I really despise and find unfair, because Hollywood transmits through out the whole world and that image, those relationships are imbued into all societies, even here. And the way that the woman is portrayed in Hollywood is in such a strong contradiction to how the female is perceived in the Nordic tradition, that it really scares me to see the effects of some of this mass consumer culture. It also creates this attitude in men that has been mentioned here on this board – about how the guy doesn’t have to buy the cow since he can get the milk for free. It’s not just the men who are lustful, but also women. It’s just that women are much, much pickier. But when guys really start expecting the women to just give it to them, that they can just use a woman without taking up any responsibility and without even giving her any courtship, that’s when you start to get really repulsed seeing how many guys are like that. I don’t think it is fair.. the guy gets the sex and runs away, the girl is left with the stigma of a ‘slut’ and a bunch of diseases and God forbid an abortion. This simply isn’t fair.. ok, I’m just rambling, thank you for your patience. And for bringing up the values of individualism that you mentioned.. I think that the individual responsibility is the biggest value and it is also one of the core American values. The frontier values as they call them..
October 20, 2009 at 1:15 am
Hello Saule,
I was very pleased to see that you had posted when I checked my messages in the late afternoon. You are welcome, Saule. All I can say is that you are deserving of the compliments I made.
In addition, I don’t think you were rambling, and I needed no patience to read thoughts that were interesting, and that came from your heart. I understand your anger and disappointment with the way things are. The tragedy is that what you have observed and experienced is true for most of the society I live in. Indeed, there is a double standard when it comes to the sexual experience of both genders, it is true that women are considered less appealing if they don’t meet standardized physical expectations, and certainly, the average man looks at you, Saule, as a pretty thing that he would like to satisfy his lust with. You have every right to be angry about those things, and I would expect no less from a woman of your caliber. I think good people rail against such injustice, and you have some fine company. Forgive me if you found my questions about your background too personal. My intent was pure, though. Since I was a child, and watched my Dad fight injustice, and suffer personally for doing so, I have had a deep curiosity about what makes such a person tick. What thing or combination of things about that person’s nature and nurture created such a desire to speak out and attempt to right wrongs and comfort those that have been hurt. I have no answers there. I do hope that you will continue to be who you are and what you are. I do hope that you will hold on to what is good, and treasure the good parents you have, and the fine example that they have been for you. I hope you and your sister will stand firm in your convictions, and will make a difference in this world.
I have grown fond of you in a platonic, or, perhaps, brotherly or fatherly sort of way, and I feel good about that. It shrinks a big world for me, and helps me personalize a region that was demonized in my youth. Please take care, and tell your parents that some old guy in North Carolina appreciates the example they have set, and the lives they have led. I really mean that, too. Take care, Saule.
October 18, 2009 at 8:13 am
Saule, I treasure the nature and probably I’d like the song more if it wasn’t for the vocal. Anyway, thanks for the video.
October 14, 2009 at 11:51 pm
Richard~ I really appreciate everything you have written about love. Trying to define love – and whether or not I feel love – has been very difficult for me…
I think in time, with the help and wisdom of those who have gone before me – one day I’ll get there.
Cheers!
Hello GL – good to see all is well, old friend.
October 19, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Thank you for the comment about my writing. Love is a subject that has kept my attention and distracted my efforts for many years.
I have been thinking about what you have said and I guess at different points in everyone’s life we perceive emotions in such a wide variety of ways that each can become diluted by the rest. It may be that we become more accustomed to what happiness is, what sadness is and of course what love is, and so we will feel each less dramatically than we probably should. With a certain amount of familiarity there comes a degree of complacency, maybe.
At my age, I wonder about knowing love if it was standing directly in front of me. Even the love that I feel for and show to my daughter is often mottled in her behavior or my prevailing attitude at any particular time. Also, the affection I have for close friends is clearly the type of love I would have for a family member now, which is nothing like it would have been when I was a much younger man.
You and I might find it very hard to define love at this specific moment in time, but we should still maintain a high level of faith that the right feelings and emotions will appear when they are needed. That kind of faith is about the only thing that keeps me in the quest.
Never rule out any possibility for what the future holds in store.
October 19, 2009 at 7:13 pm
By the way, knowing how to define love and being able to recognize it are very different. Where our definition is lacking we need only to count on our recognition to open our eyes and hearts at the appropriate time.
At least I hope that will be the case.
October 19, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Saule,
I read your most recent comments and just shook my head and laughed. Your responses to Sam and to me made very little sense in that they either failed to address what we had written or were simply rudely presented by you.
There are many people today, particularly young people and even more particularly younger females who look at every comment by every person of substance as a challenge to somehow ‘dethrone’. It was once a small fragment of society which has now grown to become a near majority consensus among that specific demographic. The very idea is humorous yet at the same time quite sad. It exemplifies the disrespectful nature of young adults around the world today. A generation or two ago, this frame of mind was based on genuine concern and a deep desire for understanding. Now it has degenerated to an arrogantly abusive and incredibly ignorant display of discourteous rhetoric. While I will not attempt to speak for Sam (he is quite eloquent and articulate enough) I will say that I don’t think our egos are lofty enough for you to be attacking as if this is some sort of warfare. This site is an open forum and its best utilized when ideas are exchanged in a mature and intelligent way. That said, I am more likely to challenge you to validate your statements rather than just sit back and smile thankfully for your input no matter how ridiculous that input is.
While my last comment to you was basically friendly and even in part complimentary in nature, your replies were something between mildly antagonistic and just plain rude. I asked you for clarification on something you said and you gave me a lambasting which, in part, had absolutely nothing what-so-ever to do with anything that I had previously written or asked you about.
“Human relationships… besides the fact that I could write a book on this, would it suffice to say that I object to the human selfishness?”
Spoken like someone too young and too inexperienced (severely lacking in life experience I think) to have a firm grasp on the concept of how reality often trumps ideology in life. What I said was, “It is not the ‘things’ that we should love (if that’s what you meant) but rather the people. Everything we have will turn to dust, including the planet we live on, but the relationships and the people we are in those relationships with are the great treasures of life.” How on God’s Earth could you take exception to that statement in the first place? I’m talking about loving, respectful relationships between couples, families and friends having greater value than houses, cars and fancy clothes. What the hell are you talking about? But then you go on to ask “which human relationships did I really mean?” followed by telling about your ‘perfect’ family verses 50% divorce rates and Angelina Jolie shooting guns! Do you even know what others are saying here? If it is just an issue of language and translation then you need to fully understand the subject before being so offensive in your replies.
By the way, please, PLEASE don’t write a book on ‘human relationships’. The shelves of book stores and libraries around the world are already cluttered with far too many volumes of painfully useless drivel. We surely don’t need another book written by someone who knows so little on the subject.
“Especially your pornographic attitude towards the female that has been transmitted to the Eastern Europe.”
You apparently don’t understand that erotica and ‘pornographic’ expression is thousands of years older than North American culture. The West falls behind the rest of the world in eroticism even though North America has helped propel the pornographic industry into a multi billion dollar concern. Again, your knowledge of the facts falls short of the reality of the situation. I suppose if you personally like it it’s sensual or even artistic but if you don’t like it then it becomes pornographic. How typically ‘new age’ of you.
Your mood swings can, and often will, diminish any potential value in what you are trying to say, but since you have already mentioned that you just like to try ‘getting at people’ there can be very little validity in your opinions.
The problem with always playing the contrarian is that in order to pull it off you must first have either the statistical, factual support for your platform or lacking that, at least the intellectual fortitude to challenge other ideas on merit or theoretical foundation. Since there is no clear evidence that you have one of these, it makes much of what you say a testament to unfounded, youthful exuberance.
Most young people go through that phase of jumping on any soap box that appears before them and blowing smoke up everyone’s shirt or skirt. Enjoy this time in life; it is fleeting, but exercise maturity when you begin to see reality setting in around you. The longer you try to hold onto your sharp, indignant attitude toward others,
“I won’t comment any further.. figure it out for yourself.”
the more you will alienate potentially wonderful relationships.
As far as,
“America really hurt the world with their ridiculous spending and consumerist incentive. That was really vile.”
well, I guess if you are a died in the wool socialist or Marxist, you are entitled to your opinion on a free market economy. Just remember that Russian Communism FAILED. Get over it.
By the way,
“The Earth is a gift. It is not a commodity that you use for your pleasure.”
Yes it is, a gift from God, I believe. No one would argue that Mother Earth has been misused and abused and that the planet should not be viewed as a never ending source of revenue for power hungry political fanatics. However, if you think that this planet is not here for our ‘use’ and ‘pleasure’ then I think you lack any remote understanding of your purpose in being here. Maybe you should go find a nice, smooth rock someplace sunny and quite, and sit there until you pass into eternity. Why waste your time and effort in front of a computer sucking expensive electrical energy out of the grid, making some multi-millionaire all the more wealthy by your presence? To think of yourself as less of a hypocrite than any of the rest of us is pretty freakin’ conceited of you.
October 19, 2009 at 10:09 pm
Richard,
I apologize for being so rude to you. I really regret that. However, you made a lot of assumptions about me (without knowing me) that are false, our worldviews are completely contradictory and I don’t have the time or need for your lectures.
October 20, 2009 at 12:27 am
I don’t make assumptions about people. I listen to (or read) what they have to say and draw conclusions based on what information I’m given. From life experience I know that there are many consistencies in the actions of people. I believe that averages, not extremes, define most human conditions. Yes, indeed, our social and political beliefs are clearly different. At this or any other point in time it would be very hard to determine if one or the other is right or wrong. However, it is almost always beneficial to rely on personal experience before theory and conjecture. There are thousands of brilliant people in the world who have expounded countless ideas about the state of our species. Since none of them have found any one system that works for all people in all regions, I will continue to trust those ideologies which have the most proven records of success.
Our world is headed down the toilet because selfishness and greed and immorality have been allowed to rule our nations. Our leaders are heinous and deceitful and have no regard for the people they swore to serve. But to blame one country or one socio-economic, political ideology more than another is foolishness. We are all complicit in our inevitable demise. Some parts of our evolution are more dangerous and have proven more destructive than others, such as communism, feminism, socialized medicine, deviating from a gold standard and others, but at the end of the day we are spoiled people living in a damaged world.
October 21, 2009 at 8:57 am
Socialized medicine is destructive? Really? Why do you think so?
I sometimes find it a little strange… You know, I agree with a lot that is said on this blog. But from reading it, you’d think that Scandinavia is the worst place on earth to live, despite the fact that we have pretty healthy economies, low crime rates, the press is freer here than anywhere else, we have less corruption than anywhere else and people are happier and feel safer than anywhere else. Certainly a lot could be improved, but I just haven’t found having a free education and free health services to impact my life in a negative way.
October 21, 2009 at 5:18 pm
To begin with, I did not intend to imply that there are no cases of socialized medical care which work well in the particular country that applies it. Scandinavia is a pretty good example of a region which has made a much better use of such a plan without destroying personal incentives in the process. It also seems that Scandinavia is an overall less corrupt region politically, though I can not swear to it because I know less about the current lifestyle there than most other parts of the world. I would love to spend some time in Scandinavia because of all that I’ve heard about lifestyle and the people of the area.
As with most socio-economic and political theories, there is the well articulated, deeply debated and generally misunderstood theory – and then there is the real world practice of the stated theory over the course of several generations.
With some first hand knowledge of socialized medicine in places like the UK, France and Canada in particular, the cost of their ‘free’ medical care has the average working person making decisions between paying their taxes and eating. The more complete the health care supplied by the government, the higher the rate of personal income taxes paid by the working, middle class citizen. The proportionate tax rates and increases are directly commensurate with the demands placed on the cost of providing the health care benefits.
In France people pay almost nothing for any health care need including medications and also have the longest mandated sick leaves of any developed nation but the personal income tax rates are the highest anywhere as well. UK taxes are a bit lower but so is the number of covered medical conditions and treatments. Canada has even lower taxes but their coverage is less and their wait times for basic surgeries are longer. In the US where taxes are lower than even Canada and there is no socialized medical plan (yet, thankfully) private insurance is available in a fair market through a number of venues and coverage is based on the plan each individual has chosen either through their employer and/or any supplemental plan they carry.
The cost of basic commodities such as food and fuel along with any amenities consistently rises with the amount spent on socialized health care in ALMOST every country that subscribes to that system. Furthermore, while many fundamental care services are low or no cost under the system, the time spent waiting for routine procedures has led to severe complications of the original condition, up to and including death.
When a good friend of mine in Michigan needed a heart transplant he was put on a list for a donor heart. He was covered by a health plan which he had set up for his employees and when a heart was available, he went to the doctor of his choice and had his surgery and has been living a healthy and active life ever since. He was almost 60 at the time of his transplant and he is over 70 now.
Another close friend and neighbor in British Columbia, Canada was diagnosed with a serious kidney disorder about seven years ago. The doctor chosen by the medical system told him that his only option was transplant surgery. He was evaluated on a priority graph and was told that he would be about two years from meeting the criteria for a transplant and that his kidney disease was too aggressive for him to survive that long, so it was suggested that he and his family get their affairs in order. There was no private care option available and no manner of private coverage that he could have been carrying that would have covered this surgery, upping his chance of survival. He passed away 13 months after the initial diagnosis with his wife and four children at his side.
Currently in Canada it is understood that wait times in emergency rooms can be several hours at any time of day. A case in Vancouver last year garnered world wide attention in the press when an elderly woman came to an ER complaining of chest pains. She was signed in and told to wait with everyone else. When she was called on and didn’t respond it was discovered she had died of a massive heart attack. She had been dead for 12 HOURS. Within a month there were other hospitals in the region bragging (front page headline in one case) that their ERs were consistently meeting their goal of seeing emergency patients within 3 hours of signing in. Can you imagine? Bragging about seeing EMERGENCY patients within 3 HOURS of signing in! That still shocks me.
Several years ago when I was having chest pains while working outside, I drove to the hospital near my place in Washington State. I was in my mid forties and upon arrival I was taken immediately to a cardiac care unit and wired up for evaluation. There were other people in the waiting area of the emergency room but my concerns were moved ahead of cuts, bruises and upset stomachs. By the way, I had no health insurance at the time.
One further example was last year when my daughter was having trouble breathing one night and we went to the regional hospital nearest to our home in Canada. After 2 ½ hours in the waiting room we left to drive the extra 40 minutes to Vancouver Children’s Hospital. We were registered, evaluated and my daughter was admitted within 20 minutes of our arrival but instead of giving the admit nurse our care card I said I was an American and my daughter needed immediate attention. After the admission process I presented the care card and the overnight stay and medical attention was covered.
The purpose of triage is to dedicate care to the most needy first, but in the case of MOST countries with socialized medicine it is very rare to have the staffing and space to allow for such vitally important considerations. You are basically there on a first come, first served basis.
I do not doubt that in some places, some socialized systems are working to some degree. It makes me happy knowing that there are countries around the world where greed and corruption have not destroyed the foundations of their society. But please meet me half way here; those countries are clear exceptions, not the rule. Socialized medicine is a grand and noble concept that has failed miserably in most countries which have instituted it, not because the idea was bad but because the power brokers have misused it. When the greedy are removed from the equation, the concept is sound and functional. Unfortunately finding political leaders and corporate heads who do not want to fill their pockets ahead of every other need or desire has become an almost impossible task. Adding socialized systems to an already greed driven government will only serve to continue the deterioration of that country while totally ignoring the needs of the people.
October 21, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Working in the health field I will admit something has to be done. But i don’t know if the president’s plan will work. As a full time worker I have insurance but the system isn’t perfect. Unfortunatly some people have to pay for it. I might someday have to too. One thing that should change for example is the paperwork. A medical codeing and billing coding worker has to fill out different paper worker for different insurance companies. Standard papers used by all insurance compies would help. We are in a sortage of doctors and nurses (nurses world wide) and we should be sure to treat these people with respect. The medical field requires dedication and no one should go into just for the money (you would be disapointed). If you want tons of money work on Wall Street. In truth no one would study so much and become a doctor for example if they didn’t want to help people.
October 24, 2009 at 1:57 am
Thanks Hazel, Westerngirl and Richard for your comments on this very important subject. I have been following the matter closely via the NEW YORK TIMES and other publications, and I have been surprised at the many great suggestions and proposals readers have made in their comments following articles. Surely, this country can learn from others around the world, and devise a system that doesn’t discourage individual responsibility and free enterprise, but allows for good preventive and acute care for all of us. There is one thing that can’t be disputed and that is that the status quo is going to break us all and render our companies uncompetitive internationally in short order. The solutions are out there. Let’s just hope that the insurance companies and the industry at large can put the welfare of a nation and its people first or that we can overcome their resistance to change.
October 24, 2009 at 4:48 am
There is an old saying that goes, “You can’t go home again”. In a philosophical sense, the deep meaning of not being able to grow past what once was, then realize how much you miss that past and then try to bring it all back to it’s previous innocence, is the essential problem with wanting to reinstitute human dignity and self respect into the health care system or even less likely the insurance business.
Many businesses and ventures for profit were begun under the guise of helping people. Certainly there was a time when a high percentage of insurance salesmen were convinced that they were doing a great service for their customers, who were in the early days their family, friends and neighbors. But sitting atop that well intended sales force was a handful of entrepreneurs who only saw a way to cash in on the natural fears of everyday people. While many of us need some way of protecting against personal disaster, the simple reality is that most will never benefit from years of premiums verses the rare instances when the plan is needed. Based on their own statistics, only a small percentage of policy holders ever file a claim against their policy, whether it is auto, health or home insurance.
The Insurance Corporations of America as a group are near to the Roman Catholic Church in total assets. It may seem like an odd comparison but it was less than ten years ago that a study involving all direct and indirect holdings of the insurance companies doing business in North America were evaluated and their worth estimated. It was staggering. What I’m getting at is that they are never ‘going to go home again’ because it is simply too lucrative not to. Insurance companies have no need to bow to our wishes or our needs. They are a tail wagging the dog and it will not change.
After them comes the pharmaceutical companies and their power in the political arena which allows them to bilk hundreds of billions of dollars out of people via the corruption of the insurance companies and the elected officials who cower to special interest. They know that they can tell the medical community what to prescribe and when so that there is always a flow of ‘new’ treatments available, but never a cure.
As far as the practice of medicine goes, it seems clear that doctors want (and feel that they deserve) a piece of the preverbal pie that the insurance and drug companies are taking us for, so they are rarely still seeing medicine in the light of helping people as much as surviving financially and living the lifestyle they feel accustomed to for their profession.
Sorry for sounding so ‘dooms day-er’ but it is a very hard to find medical professionals that serve their patients honorably and respectfully these days and it is getting worse. They are still the ‘good’ part of the system and they are slowly becoming overwhelmed by the pressure to see more patients, move more drugs and keep those treatments out there as ‘the best they can do for now’.
You have probably already heard that there is legislation pending under our new administration to remove the recommendation for new doctors to take the Hippocratic Oath upon graduation from med school. This simple oath is considered by many as ‘one of the first statements of a moral of conduct to be used by physicians, assuming the respect for all human life, even unborn’. In the original version, which by the way was written out so that the words formed a cross, the new physician swears that they “will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone”, and further that they “will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary (device for inspection of orifices) to cause an abortion”. Imagine at one time our doctors swearing that they would view every patient as if a member of their own family and to consider them as dear as their own mother or father.
We can’t go home again.
Abortion is now a form of birth control and euthanasia of our elderly has been termed merciful.
If you have any question about health care, simply look at the money trail to find the answer. It has yet to fail in my life time. When old people are no longer financially beneficial, we merely put them down. Daughter gets knocked up, we simply run her down to the dead baby clinic. To be totally honest, we had more ethical treatment of animals on the farm when I was a child than we do for people today.
Yes, the status quo seems destined to break us, but the entire system will collapse before we will ever return to a dignified, humanitarian form of caring for each other.
Truly, we can never go home again.
October 25, 2009 at 4:56 am
Thanks for the response Hazel, Sam and Richard on the subject of healthcare. I think we all see the system has a problem. Richard it is hard for me to comprehend how an emergency room would treat other people in less deadly condition but a old woman with a heart attach is not russed in. It is scary if that sort of thing starts happening in America. Right now people in critical conditions are seen first in the ER in America. But I see what you are saying. As for competing internationaly in the medical field we do have good doctors and nurses. Though we could use more education. Let me repeat America is in a sortage of doctors (and this may eventualy happen world wide after all world wide there is a sortage of nurses). Making what Richard is talking about likely to happen in America. As for drugs they don’t cure they cause an action. For example A drug maybe used to lower high blood pressure (but you will probably have to take it for the rest of your life). A pharmacist never realy stops learning about drugs.
October 25, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Hello Westerngirl,
Thanks for your interesting comments. When I spoke of competitiveness, I was not referring to our high caliber physicians, nurses and facilities, but, rather, to the huge financial burden ever increasing health insurance premiums are on companies and individuals. I talk to business people all the time, and they are all freightened by the cost of health insurance, and the fact that premiums continue to increase at rates well above inflation. We all can’t keep raising deductibles and passing on costs to employees forever in an attempt to survive.
The problem is far too complex to point fingers at any group or component of the cost structure. Individuals certainly contribute. In North Carolina, for instance, obese people who are members of the state insurance plan will now pay higher premiums than people with lower body mass ratios. Our litigious society, defensive medicine, a few greedy and incompetent medical professionals, insurance executives, inefficiencies in record keeping and treatment parameters, and modalities, pharmaceutical companies, supply companies and a host of things play a strong role in the high and ever increasing cost of medical care.
It is always interesting to read others’ thoughts on the matter, though, particularly from those in the trade, like you.
October 26, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Thanks Sam for yur imput on this issues. I now understand what you are saying. I do sometimes sympathize with business men with the riseing amount of cost on insurance. Out of curiosity I got an estimate of how much my work insurance will cost. It was over $400.00 dollars. I am not obese, have no high blood presure or high cholesteral, not diabetic, ect. Granted it would help pay if I had an accident or had to go to the Er. But as stated before that chance is low. There is corruption of course going on. Places have a hard time getting the insurrence to pay. Some doctors will not take insurance. Medical and bill coding workers are taught to add things gloves, tounge gauzes to bills to insurance company. It would be interesting to see the news media talk to people in the health field and see what they say. Right now I am a Certified med aide (I can pass meds but not give injections). I plan on becoming a nurse if I feel I would be good at it.
October 26, 2009 at 6:07 pm
westerngirl,
You’ve brought up another of the tragedies in the health care system that seems specific to NA where all extras are charged to the patient and at enormous mark ups. Patients are billed for the rubber gloves, tongue depressors, thermometer sleeves, etc., but also things like Kleenex, aspirin and even ice water in some hospitals.
Here in Washington State there was a recent news story about the aspirin given to a patient three times during a 48 hour hospital stay. A total of six tablets were administered at a cost to the patient’s insurance company of $240! That’s $40 per tablet!
I just purchased a fresh 150 count bottle of aspirin at the local Safeway for under $6 which works out to approximately 4/10 of a penny each. If hospitals are charging 1,000 times the retail cost of an item as basic as aspirin, what are they likely charging for things that we can not so easily compare?
October 27, 2009 at 4:14 am
Hello WesternGirl,
In the Health section of the online edition of THE NEW YORK TIMES there is an interactive comments section called “Health Care Conversations”(Share your thoughts about the health care debate). I have not done any reading there in days, but the caliber and diversity of the commments is really good. One physician referenced a study of the city with the highest per capita medicare spending total in the country. The total per person, something in excess of $15,000 per year, exceeded the annual per capita income by around $3,000. Amazingly, the per capita spending in the area surrounding the world-renowned Mayo Clinic was around half that amount! The single doctor that visited the area and investigated possible reasons for the high per capita rate determined that doctors owned imaging labs, clinical labs, etc. and seemed to refer unusually large numbers of patients to them. Doctors in a larger city nearby ordered significantly fewer tests, but they did not have a stake in labs, imaging centers,etc. either.
That is just one instance. I realize technology has a price, but it can be overutilized. And, of course, the socioeconomic position of the patient plays a role in this case as well.
November 8, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Mick, sadly there are people who want something for nothing. Here is information about doctors most people don’t know about http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/14/news/economy/health_care_doctors_quitting/?postversion=2009091404
November 8, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Thanks for the article, Westerngirl. Can you believe many people think the status quo is just grand?
After serving as a juror for a case involving a lawsuit several years ago, I decided that the average citizen is incapable of taking a commonsensical approach to such litigation. Solid, well-informed citizens called to serve the justice system could have stopped ridiculous and excessive malpractice suits years ago, and helped the system handle claims in a reasonable manner, but, apparently it will never happen. Sadly, it looks like reform from the top is the only solution. An industry(lawyers/disgruntled citizens) based on greed, jealousy, ignorance, and feelings of entitlement has evolved, and their lobbying power and resistance to change is huge. Once again, I think there is a way to protect the caregiver without compromising justified individual claims and rights. For the sake of this country, I hope I am right.
November 9, 2009 at 5:19 am
Hello Sam, thanks for the comments. I think people need to realize a doctor has to go to school for ten years or more to be a doctor. No one escpecialy in this day in age is going to spend that time if they didn’t want to be a doctor. Same as a nurse (face it no one would even sacrifice four years unless they what to serve people that way.) I understand accountability but I do think it has gone too far. These people want to be right on taking care of thier paitients and not make mistakes. But as I said it goes farther then that. There is a mentality that health care providers should serve for free. Not everyone thinks this but we have for example illegal immagrants, and people on wellfare that think this way.
October 19, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Sam,
Thank you for always having a kind word or compliment. It is such a pleasure to see your perspective on the topics shared here and also the calm, rational way in which you reply to everyone.
There are many times when my feeling after reading someone’s post will fall somewhere between simply ignoring them and mentally burning their house down.
Even when somebody totally misunderstands or harshly disagrees with one of your comments, you seem very willing to always take the higher ground and respectfully acknowledge their point of view. That is a gift of no small measure in today’s world.
Thank you for your well balanced and always useful input.
October 22, 2009 at 3:20 am
Hello Kisha(and anyone else interested 🙂 )
Much to the dismay of my local girlfriends( they think I am nuts), I posted a profile at LOVEPLANET.RU in your hometown. One of my girl buddies says that it looks like someone dumped battery acid on my skin in the pictures I posted, and I will have to agree. Because I am out in the sun all the time, my skin has a mid-Eastern tone, but the cell camera and cheap digital camera we used did a nice bleach job on me or something. I did post a number of photos that we took around my farm/nursery, so I hope you will take a look at those, and disregard my personal photos. The plant life and topography here in northwest North Carolina may well remind you of your homeland. I also posted a poem in the diary section. As always I am trying to educate myself, and expand my cultural horizons, and I have enjoyed the comments I have received over the past couple of days. I translate the comments with http://translate.Google.com and a local couple from Ukraine says the program does a remarkably good job. Unfortunately, I am inundated with notes from prostitutes, but I guess that goes with the territory. Thus far, my replies to them urging rehabilitation have gone unanswered. All joking aside, it is sad to see so many attractive young girls involved in that trade. At any rate, I hope you will check out my farm pictures. I don’t think I have an ID number, but I am listed as Sam and my town, and state are clearly listed. Hopefully, you can find it before I take it down. Please take care.
P.S. I posted that low age limit for your benefit. 🙂
October 23, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Sam, I don’t use this kind of sites so I guess a person who’s not registered cannot view ur profile, shame about the photos esp your farm pictures.
As for prostitutes I don’t think half of them are real, but yea a lot of them are young good looking girls, and what is most shameful is that they don’t really understand how bad is that.
October 23, 2009 at 9:06 pm
I guess you are right, Kisha. I had hoped you could view the shots of my plant nursery, and get a feel for the land here. I can sit and look at pictures of seascapes, mountains, and foreign cities for hours, so I guess I think everyone else should share my interest.
Surprisingly, I have had some pleasant conversations with a couple of people at that site. My interest is cultural, but any man would be impressed with the caliber of those two.
The prostitution practiced there is particularly appalling to me. It is painful for me to think about the fact that most of those girls have a father somewhere.
Thanks for your response, Kisha. I hope you’ll get out amongst the trees this weekend, and enjoy the fresh air.
October 24, 2009 at 1:39 am
Hello Kisha of Moscow(and anyone else interested),
I uploaded several farm pictures at my Facebook.com site. Unfortunately, I grow a lot of herbaceous perennials, like peonies, Hosta, etc., and they are more or less dormant now, so I did not want to take any pictures of those. I hope to add more shots of nursery beds in the future. I did get some pretty decent fall shots yesterday and today, so I hope you’ll take a look at those. There are several Sam Ogilvie’s on Facebook, so just look for the old guy from Wilkesboro, North Carolina. When I realized it was okay for older folks to participate at the site a few days ago, I signed up.
Changing the subject, have you ever been to Gelendzhik, Russia. I have been looking at some shots a friend took there, and, wow, it is really gorgeous. Also, if you are ever by the BeautyStudio offices in Moscow, please stop in and say hi to their attorney, Anna. I haven’t talked to her in awhile, but she is a real sweetheart. She grew up in a small village near Tver, and retains the values and friendly nature she developed there.
Take care, Kisha, and all that read this.
October 24, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Hi, Sam. Haven’t got facebook either how about flikr? or picasa? Something more accessible? =) I may upload some of the pictures I’ve taken for your visual pleasure.
I have been to Gelendzhik and to other places at the former Turkish coast, you’re correct it’s a wonderful place! I like going to the Black sea, it smells like my childhood.
October 25, 2009 at 7:33 am
Sam,
you can check my pics here if you’re interested
http://picasaweb.google.ru/kischchen
October 27, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Sam,
I can’t find your page… If you can find me, feel free to add me.
October 25, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Thank you very much, Kisha. Those photographs are fine images of some beautiful places and things.
October 26, 2009 at 11:51 pm
Hello Kisha,
I would really enjoy seeing more. Could you possibly label some of the pictures in English? I am trying to educate myself about your region, but I am really ignorant about even the most prominent landmarks, etc.
My pictures were taken quickly with a really cheap camera. I don’t think you even have to sign up at Facebook to view them. If you do, you can join just long enough to take a look and then cancel. I just signed up because several friends from a former school invited me to do so.
Thanks again for taking the time to post your photographs.
October 27, 2009 at 6:30 pm
You are most welcome, I’m still wondering about your farm though.
October 27, 2009 at 6:40 pm
You are welcome, Kisha. My page at Facebook is open, so I think you can take a look without joining. If not, you can sign up, take a look and then close your account.
I took the pictures quickly and with a cheap camera, so they are not really of high enough quality to post at a site like Picasa. Yours, on the other hand, are quite good. As I said in an earlier post, which seems to be lost, I really wish you would label some of the photos. Unfortunately, I don’t recognize even the famous landmarks readily, and would love to learn something about the region.
October 27, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Thanks for your interest, Hazel. Those are nice shots of your homeland/the UK by the way. I could not find you on Facebook. If you type my name in the search box at Facebook, around 70 entries will come up. Fortunately, most are Samanthas. I am the guy pictured wearing a gray hooded sweatshirt, sitting in a chair. If you can’t view the pictures, please send me a request and I will add you. Thanks again.
P.S. Weren’t you and your boyfriend supposed to bake some sort of bread for me and ship it next day air? 🙂
October 27, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Haha, the caramel short bread! Yes, that’s true but I actually have a very good excuse. To make it I need condensed milk, and the only place to get condensed milk here is in the Russian shop but that, unfortunately, closed a few months ago. So no condensed milk (and no pelmeni) for me 😦
October 28, 2009 at 1:06 am
For some reason, I thought Hazel was from Denmark… hmmm… Or did you move there??
Kisha, I really enjoyed your photos… Was that you kissing your bf?? 😀
October 28, 2009 at 6:07 am
Wolverine,
No, you’re right. I’m half Danish and half British.
October 28, 2009 at 7:13 am
That explains a few things… My ex gf lived in Valby. I visited her there… I liked Copenhagen a lot… Especially the outdoor mall area. That was cool to see…
There was a little misreading of the parking signs, and I wound upt driving around in there a bit… That was embarrassing… I hope to visit there again some day…
October 28, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Wolverine, haha, no it wasn’t I’d be right hard to do, given I was the person who took the picture. The couple din’t even notice, they stood there snogging for hours!
October 28, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Sam there’re not so many famous landmarks in my pictures, but I’ll think of sort of caption to add for each of them. Or link them with places on googlemap.
October 28, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Kisha, I was just wondering if you had a third rubber arm or something…. 😀
October 28, 2009 at 10:47 pm
Thanks, Kisha. Any captions would be great for me and the people that come after you. My Dad’s late sisters were always emphasizing the importance of adding names and locations to photographs, and as I look back at old family pictures, I am thankful for their diligence. Without their notes, I would have no idea who many people are, and where the pictures were taken.
Thanks again for taking the time to post them. I am sure many people have enjoyed them as much as I.
October 30, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Given that I spent my early years not far away from Chernobyl, not surprising at all.
October 30, 2009 at 11:32 pm
I wasn’t implying any kinds of ideas about mutation… lol Thanks for being a good sport… Sometimes my jokes can go over the top…
November 1, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Thanks for the captions, Kisha. Those photos of people you added are interesting, too. I see that Kisha is a shortened form of your full first name. A number of people still call me by my full name, “Samuel”, something I resented in my youth, but don’t mind at all now. I look forward to more photos.
November 1, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Wolverine, lol you’re welcome. I didn’t think it was over the top, I think rubber arm could have come in handy.
Sam, those people are my close friends and family.
And Kisha is my nickname, it’s not shoryened form of my name, actually I don’t know any Russian name you could shortened to Kisha. You see, names normally come in sort of waves when a lot of people call their babies the names that were unpopular in their own generation and you get a lot of kids called the same in the end. My own name is really common, so *Kisha* came as a huge relief for my friends, who could use it without nessesary explanation which normally had to follow. And as it has been in use for about 10 years now, so I got used to it.
November 3, 2009 at 1:36 am
Thanks for clarifying your nickname, Kisha. I saw “Kischchen” in the heading of your photographs, and mistakenly assumed that was your fullname. Please excuse my ignorance.
You did a great job of photographing your close friends and family. The children were particularly fascinating. Today was one of those days, and it was a relief to look at them once again.
November 6, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Thanks Sam, it’s funny cos I never thought Kischchen could sound like a proper name. Same suffix as Gretchen though so it apparently can be mistaken for a German name, that’s amusing.
The kids are my cousins. The little boy is espesially sweet.
October 22, 2009 at 2:19 pm
To those in the land of Akhmatova, Chekhov, Tolstoy, and prima ballerinas, and to nature lovers everywhere, a poem by Robert Frost:
October
O hushed October morning mild
Thy leaves have ripened to the fall;
Tomorrow’s wind, if it be wild,
Should waste them all.
The crows above the forest call;
Tomorrow they may form and go.
O hushed October morning mild,
Begin the hours of this day slow.
Make the day seem to us less brief.
Hearts not averse to being beguiled,
Beguile us in the way you know.
Release one leaf at break of day;
At noon release another leaf;
One from our trees, one far away.
Retard the sun with gentle mist;
Enchant the land with amethyst.
Slow, slow!
For the grapes’ sake, if they were all,
Whose leaves already are burnt with frost,
Whose clustered fruit must else be lost—
For the grapes’ sake along the wall.
Take care.
October 23, 2009 at 4:08 pm
I saw this and was very sad… and thought of you here at the Russian Women site.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222196/Britains-worst-mother-left-babies-toddlers-home-went-24-hour-drinking-binge.html
I want to move countries! 😦 They are letting these kind of people multiply here and I feel like decent people are a minority now. It’s horrible. What a story.
October 23, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Bella, there was one woman somewhere in rural Russia who negleted her daughter so much she grew up with stray dogs. the 9 years old couldn’t speak any human language and moved on her 4. When the council came to pick her up she was barkin’ at them.
I could give you more stories like that but don’t think u’d enjoy them.
October 23, 2009 at 8:48 pm
That kind of neglect is fairly common here in the States, too, Bella. I used to volunteer and pick up kids and take them to a center on Wednesday nights. Many came from one parent homes where drug, alcohol and physical abuse was obviously a problem. The filth many of them lived in was unimaginable. Sadly, the cycle has proven extremely difficult to break.
October 23, 2009 at 10:04 pm
I think I read a story of a boy in Russia who grew up amongst birds? I find feral children fascinating (it’s terrible of course, but the psychology of it is interesting).
I guess all countries have some of these people in them, but it seems to my (naive?) mind we have relatively more, especially for our tiny size! I am living near a rough area and we have a lot of young mothers here who act/look like sailors… Honestly, its pretty gross. In an area I know we have a woman in the news about my age, early twenties, who used to burn out cigarette stumps on her baby girl and she said all her friends did it. God.
October 24, 2009 at 5:59 am
Bella, I assure you there are mothers like that in every country, there are alcoholic mothers in Russia, mostly in rural areas, there are a lot of stories how they didn’t feed them, kept on the chain in the yard etc, it’s just that they’re not so popular here (not so many tabloids). We, on the other hand, do not have high teenage pregnancy rate, and our local slags don’t want babies.
It sounds that you live somewhere up north?
October 24, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Hello Kisha
No, I’ve never lived up north- I’m a very Midlands/South girl! The north of England does have a bad reputation for ‘chavs’ but you can find them anywhere, although having lived in very southern rural places they are often less violent there… though still as unabashed.
October 23, 2009 at 10:52 pm
While I may never understand how any mother can do such things to their children, it was my ex wife’s drug and alcohol binging that broke our marriage and left me to raise my daughter since the age of 1 1/2. It amazes me how the maternal instinct can come and go like that. Here in the US we see many such cases of neglect and abuse by mothers. How incredibly heart breaking.
October 24, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Indeed, it seems the only ones who are not having children are the decent people. The “trailer trash,” ghetto thugs and illegals aliens on the other hand are having litters literally on the taxpayer’s ever shrinking dime! I’ve heard how bad it is in England, and if it ever gets to that point here, I’m afraid it will result in the Civil War, Part II. People here are fed up as it is because of massive unemployment and large numbers of illegal aliens raping, robbing and killing with virtual impunity here. Already there’s been cases of local citizens ganging up on and killing them.
Taras
October 24, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Hey Taras
Just to clarify, do you mean Blacks/Mexicans in the US and Asians (Indians, Pakistanis) in the UK?
Our immigration system is insane. They like to let in the nutcases and keep out the decent, hardworking qualified people.
October 24, 2009 at 10:28 pm
The main problem here are Hispanics, but we’re having a growing problem with Muslims too. There’s been dozens arrested for plotting to massacre people in shopping malls and other other public places, as well as attacking military or government facilities. There has always been a segment of the black population that’s problematical as well, the police in my city kill black suspects frequently because they fire at police officers or bystanders. The truth is, we have a lot of groups of people with little or nothing in common with each other, and they plain hate each other, as well as white Americans. It’s a powder keg in many large cities, where if you go into the wrong neighborhood, you will be killed.
Taras
October 24, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Oh, my. These comments bring back memories of my two years as a volunteer mentor and chauffeur for kids living in challenging situations.
The most discouraging thing about social work of that kind is seeing kids that you have invested your heart, time, and money in follow the example of parents, and those living in the squalor around them and begin the cycle anew. Obese, substance abusing, foul-mouthed, never-married women with three and four children,fathered by three to four different men, invariably have mothers and grandmothers who are very much like them. The irresponsible males who helped create the problems are seldom around. I assume they are out carousing, clubbing or whatever.
I need to get involved again, though, and do what I can, because I don’t want to live selfishly, and, who knows, maybe I can help at least one kid break the mold.
October 24, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Can I ask you what I know is a really stupid question, but I still don’t have the answer to?
Why do people end up like that? Why do they not want to be better? Do they think its not possible?
October 24, 2009 at 8:34 pm
One opinion Bella is that we (all humans) learn our behavior and when all we see is this disregard for self and such low expectations placed on us, all that most will do is to primarily reach the level we are accustomed to, or just a bit less. So continues the cycle. Occasionally there are those who can’t abide by so little and they run away from their past, but it is very difficult to do what you dream of when it is so strongly in opposition to what you know first hand.
October 24, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Bella,
That is not a stupid question at all. Thousands of well-meaning people have sought the answer to it. My friend, Dale, a thoughtful, well-informed man, says that white people in the our region who live so callously and recklessly are genetically deficient. He says that European countries, such as yours, released their forefathers from prisons and shipped them to the New World. Here, generation after generation they seem to rebel against any form of authority, revel in lawlessness, and discourage any form of education or self-improvement in those around them. I am totally unqualified to render an opinion, but I believe genes do, indeed, play a powerful role.
On a more personal note, I befriended two teenage girls in the program I participated in that I thought had some promise. They were both products of broken homes, but I thought their mothers had some class and were trying very hard to do good things for them. After countless talks about potential pitfalls that attractive teenage girls faced, their recognition of them, and their stated desire to avoid them at all costs, they both wound up pregnant at age 16. One is now living in a trailer home with her boyfriend, daughter, and her mother, and her boyfriend. I have lost track of the other girl, but the last time I saw her she appeared to be pregnant once again. I am angry with them, sympathetic with them, and discouraged by them at the same time. I could rant and point fingers, but that would be presumptuous of me and rather pointless. At least these girls are not particularly violent, and I don’t expect to hear about them burning their children with cigarettes and the like. I do know that they have seen people from similar backgrounds improve and do better, so they know the possibilities. I hope they seize them, because it is never too late to try.
October 24, 2009 at 9:40 pm
I employed a man who worked for me for about 10 years until he passed away 2 years ago. With only an eighth grade education (he was completely illiterate) he managed to father 16 children on the backs of other men. He was so simple I would tell him a joke and a week later he would still be trying to figure out the punch line but he was a master at working the system. I’ve since discovered he was on 100% disability the entire time he was working for me and he knew as long as he never married his babies’ mother, welfare would pay for everything (including his room and board). All the money he earned from me went toward gambling and booze.
At his funeral I felt like a grain of salt in a pepper shaker (I was one of 3 white guys in the church). As a side note: Black sermons are an acquired taste. After we were seated they brought in the family and the procession was colossal – children, grand children, great grand children, great great grand children. To my estimation there were over 250 egg/sperm combinations and if they passed the plate they might have come up with $100. As I surveyed the room I could see his lasting legacy of gangbangers, drug dealers, prostitutes, wanna-be pimps, welfare queens, etc. (Lord have mercy). They were all succeeding just like daddy – on the backs of other more responsible MEN.
October 26, 2009 at 4:44 pm
I just found out that cell phones are a human right. Here’s a link to the program.
https://www.safelinkwireless.com/EnrollmentPublic/Home.aspx
More handouts on the backs of other more honorable MEN.
October 26, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Unbelievable . . . . .
I used to say, “What next?” but now I see there is no limit on how ridiculous the handouts can be or to what extent we will go to provide complete and utter dependence on the ‘welfare state’.
October 30, 2009 at 2:05 am
And that is precisely why many whites I know despise minorities. I despise anyone who lives this way, white trash included.
Taras
November 4, 2009 at 6:24 am
This is not to suggest minorities monopolize irresponsible behavior. My quandaries with the many colorful characters I’ve hired over the years have nothing to do with color. Without exception every one of them has worked well under constant supervision and with a great deal of disappointment and regret I’ve even tried my hand at rehabilitating the ones who show a glimpse of promise. Most recently, an employee (white trash) who I loaned a laptop last summer for the classes he was attending at the community college seized the opportunity that was before him and gave the computer away to pay for his girlfriend’s drug habit. Through experiences like this and countless others I’ve adopted a use’em and lose’em policy. Those who can’t manage their lives are better off under the heel of a boot and the crack of a whip.
October 28, 2009 at 2:52 pm
A poem by Alexander Pushkin to those who want to live a life beyond and above mere superficialties, and be free to be who you are.
A Little Bird
In alien lands devoutly clinging
To age–old rites of Russian earth
I let a captive bird go wringing
To greet the radiant spring’s rebirth
My heart grew lighter then: why mutter
Against God’s providence and rage
When I was free to set aflutter
But one poor captive from his cage
October 31, 2009 at 1:44 am
I promised Eve of St. Petersburg, a classy woman of letters, who has been reading some of the comments here, a joke. Undoubtedly, many of you have heard this joke in one form or another, but this version is true and comes straight from the source of origination. My friend, neighbor, and sometime co-worker, Dewey Ball, age 64, was born and raised in a home located smack up against the Cherokee Indian Reservation of Western North Carolina. He spent his youth running through the woods with black kids, white kids and Cherokee Indian kids playing, you guessed it, cowboys and indians. Not surprisingly, the Cherokee kids wanted to be cowboys, the black and white kids wanted to be Indians, and Dewey, bless his heart, wanted to be a riverboat captain. Obviously, he read too much Mark Twain. Many times he had native Americans helping him navigate make believe paddle- wheeled boats down the Mississippi or more likely the Nantahala. Well, now to the joke. In his teens, Dewey became acquainted with an old Indian who lived high in the hills above the village of Cherokee. Each morning this gentleman made his way down to the square to eat breakfast and drink coffee with the tribal elders. Because he often forecasted the weather for the day each morning, he became known as the weatherman. According to Dewey, he was incredibly accurate, and many of the elders began to plan their days, and even tribal activites around his reports. The old gentleman delivered the forecasts faithfully and accurately for five years or so, but came in one morning and announced that he would not be able to provide a report for the day. The ranking elder asked, “My friend, what is wrong? Have your special powers and talents deserted you?” “No sir, replied the weatherman, my doggone radio broke!”
October 31, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Sam,
Haha, that joke has even reached Denmark! 🙂
Wolverine,
I’m glad you liked Copenhagen! But yes, all those oneway streets are a nightmare! (Couldn’t reply underneath your comment).
November 1, 2009 at 2:03 am
Actually it wasn’t a one way street… It was a pedestrian walkway only… that was amusing…
Copenhagen was nice… next time I go, I want to see the palace and a few other places…
Maybe you would show me around a bit… I can drive.. I hated the pay it was signed however with the signs not be being in regular places and some signs only being on the one side of the sign… lol I got good and lost a few times…
November 1, 2009 at 2:10 am
Thanks, Hazel. I’ll have to tell Dewey that his story has gone international!
There’s an old guy named Chief Two Eagles up in Cherokee that has appeared in dozens of jokes around here. Most of them are too filthy to repeat, but I wonder now if he, too, has gone international! 🙂
November 9, 2009 at 1:41 am
Hello Hazel,
Mr. Dewey Ball was pleased to hear that “his” joke had reached Denmark. Dewey’s grandmother and father, both very much white, Anglo-Saxon protestants, were adopted into the Cherokee Nation due to the hardship they faced after the premature death of Dewey’s grandfather. Like his adopted family, Dewey has a reverence for the land and people that is simply remarkable. I wish you could see some of the things he fashions out of the scraps of wood, plastic, and metal that people throw away.
Once again, I am drifting a bit off topic, but, maybe, some Russian woman out there will find my musings interesting.
November 10, 2009 at 5:19 pm
I’d say “this is a bit off-topic”, but threads on this blog are forever evolving and I don’t know how better to get this out to the ‘RW – TRT’ crowd.
From having read a good 85% of everything on this blog, I’ve only seen a few (or maybe even just Sunny in San Diego?) of the crowd actually making a break for Russia – or if there’s more, then people are forgoing talking about it. This does not further the cause in my view.
Also, there was a brief push for specifics on the process from some guys: visa info, travelling arrangements, accommodation arrangements etc, and these have never really been present here (which is fine, it’s not really the theme).
On the 16th of December, I am planning to go live the dream for a month in Novosibirsk. I had intended to go in late January and stay for a few months, but a wonderful girl I have become acquainted with over the past few months asked if I would like to attend her brother’s wedding with her – how could I say no to such an amazing offer? Not only a great honour, but a perfect chance to experience the real Russia. So I’ve cut down my stay and brought the time scale forward, to make this what will hopefully be the first of many visits.
Soooo… to my point, I will (for the benefit of all who wish to follow) be keeping a record of all this in a blog. It will cover everything – from sorting out my visa, to getting the flights, to travelling there, the wedding, my stay and just my general trepidation and excitement. I understand some people are put off making the trip due to all these fine details, so I’m hoping it will help at least one person.
I’m not an incredible writer so I apologise in advance for that. My humour is stereotypically British and it will be a factual, observational and anecdotal blog.
For now I have not written anything, or even moved past the default layout on my blog. I will be fixing that within the next few days as I begin putting my plans into motion – so hopefully I will be updating every few days or so. Please feel free to drop by, and I will answer any and all questions I can pertaining to the things I write.
“J in Siberia”:
http://jinsiberia.wordpress.com/
November 10, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Hello Jon,
By all means, keep us posted. I guess you are right, I, at least, have been all smoke and no fire, but I am working on it. A month off is out of the question for me. I do hope to learn from your trip, though.
November 11, 2009 at 8:08 am
I hear ya on that, Sam.
This has only really come about for me after nearly a year of thinking about it (and researching and deciding).
What’s really tipped the balance is having someone local waiting to show me around and also helping to find accommodation.
November 11, 2009 at 12:08 pm
I went to Moscow for 4 months (I’ve written a little bit about my time there here: http://www.hazellouisa.dk/my-travels/moscow-feb-jun-2009/) earlier this spring and found visa application/flights no hassle at all.
Anyway, good luck and have a great trip!
November 11, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Hi Hazel, thanks for chipping in.
Yeah, so far I don’t feel hassled by the process – but some people just need to read about it being done first, they’re easily put-off otherwise.
Some of us jump, others need to be pushed. That’s life.
I enjoyed your link by the way, thank you. 🙂